tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post3893985923644445696..comments2024-03-29T11:40:46.477+03:00Comments on Life in Israel: Seperate burial coming to Bet ShemeshRafi G.http://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-82614935789141465262009-05-07T12:35:00.000+03:002009-05-07T12:35:00.000+03:00"Heter mechira is a bad example - since the poskim..."Heter mechira is a bad example - since the poskim nowadays say that EVEN those that held of heter mechira in the past would reject it as a bunk / fake sale now, and therefore does not count at all."<br /><br />Not true, most poskim hold that it is a valid sale nowadays, for example R' Shlomo Zalman zt"l. Not to mention that anyone who sells chametz in Israel violates "lo techanem" to the same extent as with heter mechira (since you also sell the location of the chametz as a mechanism for kinyan agav). And as is well known every charedi grocery store sells chametz. The objection to heter mechira is political not halachic, basically, "moridin ve'ein maalin" applied to every person who does not dress like me.ericnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-36978826992941573052009-05-07T12:34:00.000+03:002009-05-07T12:34:00.000+03:00Shlomo - interesting perspective. thanks. I don't ...Shlomo - interesting perspective. thanks. I don't think though that religious look for the non-religious to become religious. But still the sacrifice for unity towards the haredi side is still great. <br />good point.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-69047325182301519232009-05-07T12:32:00.000+03:002009-05-07T12:32:00.000+03:00"why is the need for unity always used against the..."why is the need for unity always used against the haredi point of view and in favor of the non-haredi?"<br /><br />There is a basic asymmetry between what charedim and secular people ask for. Charedim ask for secular people to become religious. Secular people don't ask that charedim become secular, just that charedim stay out of their own lives. When charedim ask for secular people to become religious, they are asking the secular people to make a huge sacrifice in terms of their personal priorities. In return for this sacrifice, one would expect the charedim to do some kind of favor for the secular people. A gesture at unity would be one such favor. But when such gestures never come, do the charedim really wonder why people remain secular?Shlomonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-33121720777907896452009-05-06T23:31:00.000+03:002009-05-06T23:31:00.000+03:00Even in death the Jew is special. In America for i...Even in death the Jew is special. In America for instance, Jews are buried in the Jewish part of the cemetery and this was done for my father, may his memory be for a blessing. He wasn't a religious man by any means but he still received a burial according to Jewish custom. The Jew is different from the nations and in Eretz Israel some Jews are more in status than other Jews - but my caveat would be only G-d can see into the heart and know the true value of a human being.NormanFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03365459073293643108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-37742777996034854692009-05-06T13:07:00.000+03:002009-05-06T13:07:00.000+03:00David - they can be buried together, but who said ...David - they can be buried together, but who said they can live together?Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-56401570218113314112009-05-06T13:02:00.000+03:002009-05-06T13:02:00.000+03:00If shmirat shabbat is the only criteria for haredi...If shmirat shabbat is the only criteria for haredim to be buried among one another, perhaps the local Beit Yaakov schools in Bet Shemesh will now agree to lift their longstanding ban on accepting Sefardi girls!David E.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-82007971707984633532009-05-06T12:06:00.000+03:002009-05-06T12:06:00.000+03:00Seperate cemetaries: One for Yissacher, one for Ze...Seperate cemetaries: One for Yissacher, one for Zevulun.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-13078163569185856442009-05-05T09:22:00.000+03:002009-05-05T09:22:00.000+03:00without getting into a big debate about it, as tha...without getting into a big debate about it, as that is not the topic of this post, I see a difference between a purely halachic debate and between implementation.<br /><br />If rabbonim are against it on halachic grounds, that is fine and they can say they do not see it as a solution, even l'kula, etc.<br />But when it comes to implementation, I do not see why they are so against it. There are plenty of rabbonim who accept it and say the hetter can be used. So there is a machlokes. <br />In implementation, especially when it is hardly relevant to them, I see no reason why they have to oppose it so strongly considering other rabbonim allow it. Let those who want rely on those other rabbonim.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-36124356076423582762009-05-05T09:04:00.000+03:002009-05-05T09:04:00.000+03:00You really dont understand it ?
They hold that the...You really dont understand it ?<br />They hold that the sale is not worth the paper its written on. They hold that a) its assur to sell land to non jews in EY, and b) the chilonim think the sale is a joke and never intend to sell it anyways c) they work the land like its theirs d) its no longer pikuach nefesh like it was in the times of Rav Kook e) if the aram tried to hold the land at the of the year, do you think he would actually keep it? <br />There are more reasons, there are books written about it.<br />Based on the above and more, and perhaps also bc the Mishna says that bc of lack of observance of shmitta, the punishment it galus, the chareidi rabbonim dont want to see ANYONE being oiver on issurim left and right for the whole year, with the "sanction" of halahcaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-16449777078544281632009-05-05T00:07:00.000+03:002009-05-05T00:07:00.000+03:00harediharediRafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-28592156762006559412009-05-04T20:53:00.000+03:002009-05-04T20:53:00.000+03:00Rafi- just for clarity "their" refers to the chare...Rafi- just for clarity "their" refers to the charedi or the D'l position?Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-66041969506191165212009-05-04T13:02:00.000+03:002009-05-04T13:02:00.000+03:00Abbi - some things I understand even if I don't ag...Abbi - some things I understand even if I don't agree, but from their viewpoint it is reasonable. Some things I don't understand at all. hetter mechira is one of those things I don't understand their position at all on.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-38519363683468873382009-05-04T13:00:00.000+03:002009-05-04T13:00:00.000+03:00Since this "strong desire to prevent aveiros" only...Since this "strong desire to prevent aveiros" only produces more sinat chinam and divisiveness, and since most chilonim won't be keeping charedi-ism (let alone regular Jewish halacha) any time soon, I still don't buy this attitude. (btw, it's charedi rabbis who decided the law was bunk; there are Orthodox rabbis who still hold that it's fine; and once again, no one is forcing charedim to eat heter mechira. The issue is whether it be used by the Chief Rabbinate (which the charedim don't hold by anway) altogether). <br /><br />This is another example of the refusal to acknowledge that halacha functions in the real world, populated by real people, not simply herds of sheep you can fence in with random chumras and mind control.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-40710299832101840412009-05-04T12:03:00.000+03:002009-05-04T12:03:00.000+03:00not G.
Interesting point I just found. The Shulha...not G.<br /><br />Interesting point I just found. The Shulhan Arukh in siman kuf-tzadi-tet writes:<br />אין קוברים רשע אצל צדיק, שנאמר אל תאסוף עם חטאים נפשי. ואפילו רשע חמור אצל רשע קל, אין קוברים. וכן אין קוברין צדיק ובל שכן בינוני וכשר אצל חסיד מופלג. שנים שהיו שונאים זה לזה, אין לקברם יחד, שגם במותם, אין להם מנוחה יחד:<br /><br />However the Aruch HaShulhan (siman shin-samekh-bet) says:<br />ואין קוברין רשע אצל צדיק, אפילו רשע חמור אצל רשע קל. וכן אין קוברין צדיק, וכל שכן בינוני, אצל חסיד מופלג. <B>אבל קוברים בעל תשובה אצל צדיק גמור.</B>וכן שנים שהיו שונאים זה לזה – אין לקוברם יחד, שאף במותם אין להם מנוחה ביחד.<br /><br />Here is Simon's Baal Teshuva.<br /><br />From what I have been able to glean online, the whole issue is learned from Harugei Beit Din who cannot be buried together with regular dead becauase either they have no kapara or didn't do teshuva before they died.<br /><br />From this the halakha has evolved to separate people of diffrent levels of tzaddikut and not to bury Jews and goyim together on the assumption that all goyim are resha'im and all yidden are tzaddikim. <br /><br />To me it seems perverse to separate people in death to different levels of tzaddikut. There are those who have <I>hirhurei teshuva</I>, those who are <I>koneh olamo be-shaah achat</I>, there are <I>tzaddikim nistarim</I> and there are just plain <I>ameikh kulam tzaddikim</I>. <br /><br /><I>Hessed shel emet</I> is to bury the dead because they can never thank you. How can anyone justify disgracing a person in his burial when he cannot answer back and relegate him to the second league because of hearsay and one-sided judgment.Rafi (S)https://www.blogger.com/profile/18103892755392538611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-52689697521112059182009-05-04T11:25:00.000+03:002009-05-04T11:25:00.000+03:00Heter mechira is a bad example - since the poskim ...Heter mechira is a bad example - since the poskim nowadays say that EVEN those that held of heter mechira in the past would reject it as a bunk / fake sale now, and therefore does not count at all. It is their love of their secular bretheren, and their desire to prevent their doing aveiros which pushes them to act in such a strong mannerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-33480295596300753372009-05-04T11:01:00.000+03:002009-05-04T11:01:00.000+03:00In the middle of the BS cemetery there is a sectio...In the middle of the BS cemetery there is a section for non-Jewish people. The cemetery is built in terraces on a hill, so there is a wall on one side of it only to separate as the other sides have <I>mehitzot</I> by virtue of the topography.Rafi (S)https://www.blogger.com/profile/18103892755392538611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-14945818418905140322009-05-04T10:17:00.000+03:002009-05-04T10:17:00.000+03:00i have often wondered where are the non jewish rus...i have often wondered where are the non jewish russians buried.<br /><br /><br />people are not checked after they die as they are before marriage to check their halachic statusAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-67139543302160779572009-05-04T10:14:00.000+03:002009-05-04T10:14:00.000+03:00rw - I think traditionally that shmirat shabbat ha...rw - I think traditionally that shmirat shabbat has always been the barometer.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-81162646273303747332009-05-04T10:07:00.001+03:002009-05-04T10:07:00.001+03:00Rafi, my point has already been made by Menachem a...Rafi, my point has already been made by Menachem and Dan G.<br /><br />I will add, though, why does it have to be a matter of "giving up"? Why can't it be a matter of simple tolerance and respect, to use icky PC American words?<br /><br />In my argument with my brother, we focused on heter mechira. Why did the charedim have to make every effort under the sun to cancel heter mechira, when this was a halchically acceptable kula that actually prevents thousands of chilonim from eating kedushat shviit? No one is forcing charedim to eat heter mechira. But why must they make every effort to PREVENT others from keeping a halachically valid kula. <br /><br />More importantly, why doesn't the charedi community even care whether chilonim eat shviit or not. Why is it always "my way or the highway"? This is what I mean about how charedim just have no sense of ahavat yisrael or klal yisrael and I believe it's this attitude that's so destructive for the whole community at large (not to mention preventing moshiach from coming, but that's another issue altogether).Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-46499519783220186212009-05-04T10:07:00.000+03:002009-05-04T10:07:00.000+03:00Rafi,
Thanks for bringing this issue to light, it'...Rafi,<br />Thanks for bringing this issue to light, it's completely news to me.<br />If as you say the halacha is that you should not bury a tzadik next to a rasha, who says that this is judged by shabbat observance?<br />In Bet Shemesh there are many traditional sefardi ladies who make sure to go to the mikveh, (you see them coming in all kinds of clothes) but may not be totally shomer shabbat.<br />Is it only shabbat observance that makes you a tzadik? What about a shomer shabbat guy who evades taxes and beats his wife? Is he a tzadik?<br />No-one here on earth is qualified to to decide who is a tzadik or not.rwnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-91965990867603056592009-05-04T07:11:00.000+03:002009-05-04T07:11:00.000+03:00i don't know rafi. you are too quick to discount ...i don't know rafi. you are too quick to discount what people consider chilul shabbos. take Chicago. According to some, If you follow R' cohen and use the eruv, you are mechalel shabbos bifarhesya. does that count? who decides? who has the right to decide and who has the right to say they have the right?shaya gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-46320724623966557392009-05-04T02:34:00.000+03:002009-05-04T02:34:00.000+03:00i wonder what will be considered shomer shabbos? ...i wonder what will be considered shomer shabbos? if you use a tea bag? or what about timers on air conditioners? or what about letters on a cake? who will determine the smaller details? <br /><br />essy to say he drove, what about tinok shenishba? who willing to be mevazeh a meis and their families b'rabim for this issue? <br /><br />good for you though. keep telling us how wonderful rbs really is. yes, people as individuals may be great, as a group, they are as devisive as any other group.shaya gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-65303521540870424922009-05-04T01:21:00.000+03:002009-05-04T01:21:00.000+03:00Rafi G,
chiloni recognize ortho rabbis and not vi...Rafi G,<br /><br />chiloni recognize ortho rabbis and not vica versa, chilonim dont throw stones to make you drive on shabat, chilonim dont insist that your wife dress immodestly when you walk through their neighbrhood or force you to take off your kipah...<br /><br />the chilonim dont seperate themselves from the rest of society.<br /><br />so yes unity must come from the charedim, they are the ones who have walked away and reject non-charedim.<br /><br />just look at the fact that david believes shaya is mochel shabbat for using the eruv and they could not attend michael's bris because he was carried, using the eruv, across the street.<br />the chiloni offered unity by having a brit and making it orthodox, just to show a personal anecdote.Dan Gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-24485622344634210072009-05-04T00:05:00.000+03:002009-05-04T00:05:00.000+03:00True, you never know who does teshuva on the death...True, you never know who does teshuva on the deathbed, but there is a din - rafi quoted it - that differentiates a rasha from a tzaddik. How do you work with that halacha?<br /><br />If the chilonim hate the chareidim anyways, and the chareidim just drive teh chilonim crazy, why do the chilonim care that the chareidim dont want to be buried with them? The chilonim dont usually care about what the chareidim think / do anyways?<br /><br />Have there been many chareidim buried in the BS cemetary until now? I have been to around 10 funerals in BS, but ALL of them in Eretz haChaim - which is private, and NONE in the BS cemetary. Maybe it is bc there was not a shomer shabbos area that chareidim were looking to get buried elsewhere. Now that chareidim are holding around 40% of the population in BS, they want to establish a shomer shabbos area in the BS cemetary, so that they will have an additional option to be buried there.<br /><br />True, the chareidim sometimes make a lot of noise, sometimes a lot more than they need to, but why do the MO and the chilonim rush to match them with as much (worthless) noise? Why is this the issue you want to take up with them? Why does it bother you so much that they want their own part?<br /><br />And btw, they ARE acting to unify - they are not asking for a chelkat chareidim - they are willing to INCLUDE anyone who is shomer shabbos. Dont look for only the bad, and you might see some good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-10666276199472573452009-05-03T23:32:00.000+03:002009-05-03T23:32:00.000+03:00"...why is the need for unity always used against ..."...why is the need for unity always used against the haredi point of view and in favor of the non-haredi?..."<br /><br />Because, Rafi, more and more often it's Chareidi actions, not just their point of view, that is causing disunity. It's also a general lack of consideration for the feelings of others. The goal here could have been accomplished in a much more menschlike fashion, for example, they could have quietly established a sect-based cemetery. It is very common to have cemeteries related to groups, shuls, etc. and would probably have raised few, if any, eyebrows. <br /><br />But a common thread of behavior in the Chareidi community (and you point this out often) is a fundamental lack of consideration. And, yes this is a problem in Israeli society in general, but Torah Jews have a specific obligation to act otherwise.Menachemnoreply@blogger.com