tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post6445452801223893450..comments2024-03-29T06:05:20.562+03:00Comments on Life in Israel: Guest Post: Should I go haredi or dati leumi?Rafi G.http://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-79963845776316943592019-12-20T00:32:52.831+02:002019-12-20T00:32:52.831+02:00Of course Eretz Yisroel is still in galut! Or are ...Of course Eretz Yisroel is still in galut! Or are you saying that galut ends where the boarders of the State of Israel begin? That's impossible according to halacha, because galut will end over the entire Eretz Yusroel (land of Israel), and not where the boarders of a State end. The entire world is and remains galut until moschiach comes, and the Shechinah is restored, with the building of the Beis Hamikdash. Just because Jews, who were not Torah observant, decided to establish a State in part of what's biblical Eretz Yisroel, does not mean the galut is over. If that were the case, the galut would have ended thousands of years ago, when a Jewish kingdom existed. Jewish political sovereignty (and even is it full sovereignty, as the United Nations, USA, Russia and EU constantly give orders to the Medinat Yisroel, which the government follows?) does not equate to the end of galut. Terrorist attacks and giving land "back to the Palestinians" are not part of the end of galut, but rather galut itself.<br /><br />Furthermore, please site a source for your comment that Haredim "try to wall themselves in." There are Haredi men and women working at Misrad HaChinuch, Misrad HaKlita, and just about every other Misrad you can think of. There are Haredi knesset members. There are Haredi men and women working in every sector of Israel, including as lawyers, computer technicians, cyber security experts, doctors, engineers, cashiers, insurance salesmen, and etc. How do you figure Haredim "wall themselves in?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-40170935673648576232016-02-21T19:01:40.632+02:002016-02-21T19:01:40.632+02:00Excuse me - I would not agree with this at all, I ...Excuse me - I would not agree with this at all, I am chareidi and I definitely don't stone people, riot, it's a small group of extremists in Rbs (ramat Beit shemesh) just like many people defend the Muslim people saying its a gorilla of extremists, same for chareid. You can't just go around judging people based on how they classify themselves Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-82139108373929046072009-12-29T21:41:18.396+02:002009-12-29T21:41:18.396+02:00Many, many years ago, when we were living in Israe...Many, many years ago, when we were living in Israel and had a similar dilemma, I "interviewed" at the Chorev school to try to get my daughter in. <br /><br />The Rosh Yeshiva/Principal asked me if I was Chareidi. Telling the truth, I said no. Then he asked me if I covered my hair all the time. Again, telling the truth (as it was at the time), I answered in the negative. He rejected my daughter.<br /><br />Thank G-d. It was the wrong place for her and for us. I don't call a school which teaches that "dinosaur bones were planted in place by Hashem to fool the scientists, because they never really existed" a Dati Leumi school.<br /><br />I call it Hareidi/ridiculous.Lady-Lighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04992305067771885711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-50167382898951211042009-12-23T17:08:47.657+02:002009-12-23T17:08:47.657+02:00Many people I know who have gone the Chareidi rout...Many people I know who have gone the Chareidi route, is because they don't want their children going to the army.<br /><br />My advice: Chanoch haNoar al pi darko.<br /><br />Every kid is different, and what is right for one isn't necessarily the best option for another.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-81147325054885233072009-12-13T11:53:53.799+02:002009-12-13T11:53:53.799+02:00The foundation of most people is the family, unles...The foundation of most people is the family, unless they have lost their family, and then it is the teacher. It is more important for the family to assert core values than for it to rely on a school to do so. The school does not truly enforce behavior; family and friends are the behavioral keys. Talking with your children regularly is crucial. Since you think/believe that the government of Israel has legitimacy, you are already detached from the Haredim. Your main concern is to preserve your values in an atmosphere which may not be strict. The true middle path, advocated by chazal and which we see more clearly in DL gedolim, is in fact much harder than the Haredi path. Yet you will wind up IY"H with strong children if you take this path. I am an olah, DL, and have now lived in the heart of a Haredi community by hashgacha pratit for 1 1/3 years. I was very strongly attracted to the clear lines of no driving on Shabbath and separating men from their baser impulses but found that this latter was overdone. By and large, Haredi women I have known live by small minded, limited, and formulaic understanding. I do not fault many of the Haredim, men and women,as many of them must have sincere beliefs. However, it is very tempting to put on an outward show and even follow rules without making the leap from the rules to one's interactions with other humans, the "responsibility to other men". Bachya Ibn Pakuda made it clear about the duties of the heart. If you can, it is better to allow your children to learn the middle path, as they will then have many possible directions to follow but with the right balance.<br />One more caveat: Jews have had to struggle for over 1000 years with living in antagonistic circumstances--especially Ashkenazi Jews--but while there are serious rifts in Israel, it is EY, not Galut, and many of the same protective restrictions do not really apply. As many sages have said, it is attractive to wall oneself off (as the Haredi try to do) but ultimately it is not living a "real" life as Hashem put us here to do. I mean no offense to Haredim but the gestalt veers off to a static interpretation of Judaism.<br /><br />Brana LobelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-91966947224693836222009-12-07T23:18:09.516+02:002009-12-07T23:18:09.516+02:00What I find most disturbing about this discussion ...What I find most disturbing about this discussion is that almost all of the answers to this person's seemingly sincere (though, I feel, misguided) question, either involve some assertion of superiority regarding one path over the other, or base themselves on the benefits that accrue to the would-be path follower as opposed to the inherent merits of the paths-- as if these paths are merely tactics for "making it" within Israeli society. <br /><br />My answer to this person is, do not expect these synthetic sociological constructs and their respective institutions to raise your children or make you a better Jew. Focus on the responsibility you have within your relationship to Hashem, to fear and love Him, learn His Torah and keep his mitzvos. No one, no matter what head covering they choose, will be able to escape these criteria in the final analysis of their own individual lives. Find the resources you and your family needs to do these things in the most optimal manner possible. Then you can worry about leasing or buying an apartment.Tani Burtonhttp://www.onthederech.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-20925863967799221902009-12-07T21:04:11.727+02:002009-12-07T21:04:11.727+02:00Rafi Re: Beis Yaakov HaTzafon
The school serves t...Rafi Re: Beis Yaakov HaTzafon<br /><br />The school serves the Sanhedria area in Jerusalem, which is quite right-wing charedi. It is also for Ramat Eshkol, which has become American charedi in recent years. To deal with the different communities, the principal put the Americans in a separate class. I only heard about it after it was all over (I think the Americans may have left the school - by choice - in the end. I'm not sure). You can search online for more details.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-77406483118017123072009-12-07T16:13:25.074+02:002009-12-07T16:13:25.074+02:00I've read the comments about it being better t...I've read the comments about it being better to put your kids in a school that is more right wing than you. <br />First of all, you have to ask whether you are talking about the parent body or the hashkafa of the school. Since most people think that a more right wing school will make up for anything lacking at home, the parent body is skewed to the left of the school's hashkafa.<br />Second, I think it can be detrimental to send to a school that is far from the parents hashkafa, whether to the right or the left. Sending a dati leumi child to a charedi school can lead to the child going off the derech in the same way it might with a charedi kid in a DL school. Children have a hard time when they learn things at school that contradict what they are being taught at home. I'm talking about the big things like attitude toward the army and the State of Israel and the opposite sex, not sleeve length. <br />I heard that at the Rappaport interview (1st grade) they ask where you see your kid in 7th grade.<br />I prefer a school with a hashkafa closest to our own, even if we will be one of the more "right wing" families.mother in israelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13715046177293916034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-7266230922757593872009-12-07T13:02:28.773+02:002009-12-07T13:02:28.773+02:00Here is part of the answer.
The challenge we have...Here is part of the answer.<br /><br />The challenge we have is that we keep labeling Jews into smaller groups. If we focused on the Bnai Yisroel part and not the Coastal vs Heartland, Religious vs Secular, Charedi vs Dati Leumi.<br /><br />When we were in the states, we tended towards Black because that was our means to deal with the crush of Chutz.<br /><br />Here in Israel it is much easier to be observant w/o the need to be Black.<br /><br />Coming from a conservative background, having seen the light in my early 20's (I am now 52), one thing I never understood is Modern Orthodox. This has always struck me as an oxymoron. Frum means following the traditional ways that have been passed down from Ancient Times.<br /><br />If a child is choosing to be further right then his/her parents this must be what they need. I suppose that if a child moves lefty it is also what they need. Being a parent requires a lot of prayer to HKBH that our children will be in the best environment possible for them.<br /><br />If your child chooses further right, are you as a parent prepared to REALLY support them in their choice, especially when it makes a demand on you?<br /><br />I arrived on Aliyah 16 Nov 2006, on R.H. Nisan my son and I assended Har HaBayit, mikveh, cloth shoes, carrying nothing. We toured w/Rabbi Nachum Schnitzer who had lead groups many times before. I told him that part of the reason I was on Har HaBayit was to do T'shuva. In 1976, when I was 18 and on an AZYF summer in Israel trip, our Sachnut tour guides brought us up to Har HaBayit. When I asked about the sign from the Rabbis I was told that I didn't have an option since we were leaving by a different gate. I touched the mozaic on the structure in the middle of Har HaBayit. I stood in the doorway and gazed upon the Even Shisiyah, although at the time, our guides only mentioned that that was the rock that muhammed's horse rose up from.<br /><br />So, walking in the permitted area w/o crossing to the forbidden area was my tikun.<br /><br />Shortly after, it came up in Chaim Yisroel's 5th grade class at Debrot Moshe, a school he chose. When he mentioned that we had been on Har HaBayit, his Rebbi said that the Rabbi's forbade that.<br /><br />I talked w/ his Rebbi who explained that while there are ways to walk on Har HaBayit that would be permissible, since the Rabbis have said we can't, we can't. Rebbe went on to say that while I wouldn't be over, we don't go. He was trying to be diplomatic and said that he was not telling me what I could or couldn't do.<br /><br />Here comes the mussar: I told him that if he said to my son that we couldn't ascend Har HaBayit then we couldn't ascend Har HaBayit, because if I did return to Har HaBayit then I would be negating all the Torah that he had taught my son that year.<br /><br />So, if you love your child and you want them to be Torah observant, then once a school is chosen the parents need to be supportive in that chinuch.<br /><br />My HKBH guide your path.<br /><br />HillelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-26277557074020733892009-12-07T11:53:50.178+02:002009-12-07T11:53:50.178+02:00what happened in Beis Yaakov HaTzafon?what happened in Beis Yaakov HaTzafon?Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-68222272531240481112009-12-07T11:49:20.218+02:002009-12-07T11:49:20.218+02:00This topic came up in a chinuch shiur recently. (I...This topic came up in a chinuch shiur recently. (It is given by an Israeli charedi woman, who said she decided to discuss it during all her courses with Americans after what happened with the Beis Yaakov Hatzafon a while ago.) <br /><br />She said that while in previous generations unity was a big goal, in today's generation people judge what group you belong to by your clothes and your lifestyle (both in Israel and parts of the US). She advised us to accept this reality and start thinking about where we belong while our kids were still young, and then, if necessary, gradually changing our clothing/lifestyle (eg. amount of toys and chugim, computer in the home) to fit in with where we want to be. She said to think about what your rav and community do, and then the schools you want will want you. As long as you're following your rav and are happy with your community, you should be ok to get into the schools for that community. For example, she said Rapaport is an ok school to send to, but you are making a decision that will affect the future schools you send your kids to and you have to be happy with that. She wasn't telling us that we have to be right-wing charedi, but she was telling us that if we want to send our kids to those schools (eg. the Snif), we need to behave accordingly while our kids are younger (both so we'll look like we belong when we apply to the school, and so our kids will have an easier time integrating there). <br /><br />To my relief she also said that due to financial reality the concept of a ben Torah that also works is catching on in Israeli society, although it is common for men to learn for about 5 years after marriage. <br /><br />The letter writer sounds like he had been in Israel long enough to have found a community and schools that he feels comfortable with, and I'd advise him to continue on to High Schools in the same system. If he decides he wants his family to be more charedi, perhaps the more modern American schools would accept his daughter, but it would be a decision that affects how his family behaves at home too. The main thing is to be able to support the school. (The same teacher has told us previously an unusual story of a secular boy who decided he wanted to go to a torah school in kita aleph. His parents let him and agreed to support the school in whatever it said, although they never became frum. Today he is an avreich in Hevron, married into a chashuva family. His parents are still not frum, but dress the part when necessary,eg. at the wedding.<br /><br />With regards to the comments that it's better to be more lax than the school, these surprised me as I have heard people over the years say the opposite, that if you're telling your kids they don't have to listen to the restrictions the school is giving, they can generalise it to all of yiddishkeit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-20585390673934550462009-12-06T17:24:19.427+02:002009-12-06T17:24:19.427+02:00I think Americans tend to choose Charedi because t...I think Americans tend to choose Charedi because they dont understand what Charedi in Israel means.<br />In America to be mroe serious religiously meant wearing a black hat and the like. If you wore a kippa seruga it was because your girlfriend made it for you.<br />So when they come to Israel, they go with what they think they know - not understanding how different an American Charedi is from them and not understanding that there are Torani DL that are just as makpid on halacha that they were in America.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1038003739705955522009-12-06T15:01:58.325+02:002009-12-06T15:01:58.325+02:00I totally agree with the previous comment that it&...I totally agree with the previous comment that it's a bit late in the game to change courses, particularly socially. Your daughter has made her own friends in the milieu and school you're currently in. And she probably already has her own ideas about which direction she wants to go. So forcing her one way or another is not a great way to go. I urge you to consult with her and make the decision together.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-66404903554296734552009-12-06T13:48:26.075+02:002009-12-06T13:48:26.075+02:00I just want to urge you to think twice and three t...I just want to urge you to think twice and three times about switching educational horses in midstream. Your daughter's friends and classmates are presumably all headed towards a particular range of schools. It is quite reasonable for you to encourage her to consider some schools within that range and to rule out others. And if SHE is taking the initiative, it is also reasonable to consider schools that are very different hashkafically from those her classmates are considering. But for the parents of a young teenager, who is old enough to have her own opinion, to decide that to switch her from DL to chardal or chareidi is pretty risky. I know some adults whose parents did this sort of thing at that age - either DL/MO to chareidi, or vice versa - from what they report, all were confused and/or rebellious at the time of the transition, and some are STILL confused and/or rebellious decades later. I am not saying she shouldn't choose a more chareidi school than where she is now, but I think she needs to feel like SHE owns the decision.Ilana Elzufonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14342501880731201027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-11441133975116752942009-12-06T11:06:50.823+02:002009-12-06T11:06:50.823+02:00I only skimmed over some of the comments so I may ...I only skimmed over some of the comments so I may have missed a lot and most of them are langa megillos.<br /><br />To me the answer to his dilemma is really quite simple: <br /><br />This gentelman must decide what kind of husbands he would like to see his daughters with. Obviously, if his daughters have their own shittos he must take that into account, but if they don't, he should go with his own. If he would like more chareidi guys as sons-in-law he must send his girls to the more charedi schools. If he would like more dati-leumi SILs, then dati-leumi is the way to go.<br /><br />No chachmas here.<br /><br />In case he is confused about what a chareidi really is, he may want to look into my book:<br /><br /><a href="http://oneabovesevenbelow.googlepages.com/" rel="nofollow">One Above and Seven Below</a><br /><br />and the associated blog:<br /><br /><a href="http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Achas L'Maala V'Sheva L'Matta</a><br /><br />Hatzlacha Rabba<br /><br />YechezkelYechezkel Hirshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-89169714401132517852009-12-06T10:51:37.558+02:002009-12-06T10:51:37.558+02:00The mikve comment was ridiculous. There are people...The mikve comment was ridiculous. There are people who consider themselves religious and just don't keep certain things. Most of them probably do issurei deoraisa. <br />Joining that group was not part of the discussion here. If you want to take into account that the broader DL includes those types that is a different issueanonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-72597910555442873162009-12-06T09:09:12.133+02:002009-12-06T09:09:12.133+02:00"I'm totally biased; I washed up as a tee..."I'm totally biased; I washed up as a teen at Machon Meir..."<br /><br />I think Rav Bigon would be quite proud of you? Have you been back? Shared with him what you do?Mordechai Y. Scherhttp://www.kolberamah.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-17242081042903279542009-12-06T08:19:05.286+02:002009-12-06T08:19:05.286+02:00A psychologist friend of mine who works for the me...<i>A psychologist friend of mine who works for the medina told me that over 66% of Dati Leumi Torani children are not shomer Shabbat after the Army</i><br /><br />He's obviously charedi. Otherwise he would acknowledge his statistic is more like 66% of those he COUNSELS are like this, and recognize that those who deal in pathology do not get a true cross-section of the population.<br /><br /><br /><i>If the girl has gone to the mikva, then even .... </i><br /><br />Buddy, your post is too disgusting to actually quote. And it misses the point. Yes the DL community turns more of a blind eye to open violations in this area and it's a shame. But your style of DL (if you even are) doesn't suit any of the sincere posters here, who take their halacha and chinuch yeladim serioiusly, whatever the community.<br /><br />Another canard.Shiranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-86036332745190921572009-12-05T21:40:48.256+02:002009-12-05T21:40:48.256+02:00I think some of the Charedi posters here are paint...I think some of the Charedi posters here are painting a picture of DL as if it is all one uniform movement.<br />Boyfriend girlfriend is not in many DL schools.<br />Same with becoming not frum. It is a problem more in some communities than others. Charedim also have that problem. Just check out the evening hangouts in RBS and ask the kids where they come from.<br /><br /><br />Re the comment about R. Shach Zt"l.<br />With all due respect to him (I did not confirm the citation, but for arguments sake), did he blindly accept every other statement of the Chafetz Chaim? Do you think the Ribbono Shel Olam wants a talmid chacham of that stature to blindly accept statement from gedolim of the previous generation?<br />Was that really his main argument against zionism?<br />What does quoting R. Shach add to the discussion without quoting all of the other gedolim?<br /><br /><br />All of the charedi posters who base their lives on rumors,hearsay, and anecdotes should perhaps give some citation to the ridiculous statistics that they quote that everyone in the DL community knows are false.anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-45168618081446813882009-12-05T21:28:00.464+02:002009-12-05T21:28:00.464+02:00Binyomin,
Don't you think it is disingenuous ...Binyomin,<br /><br />Don't you think it is disingenuous to present your school without mentioning the fact that it is obviously a way to try to convert American girls into Israeli charedi?<br />You mention strong hashkafa without even mentioning what the hashkafa is. This gives you the chance to tell each individual who calls what they want to hear.anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-56312775610827881202009-12-05T19:33:05.285+02:002009-12-05T19:33:05.285+02:00Kol Hakavod Rafi for inviting Yehoshua to write th...Kol Hakavod Rafi for inviting Yehoshua to write this article/question. It's a great question!<br /><br />Some of the characteristics I see of DL:<br /><br />1. A belief that the creation of the State was not just a political act (such as establishing a new shtetl) - but has religious ramifications. The Nissim of the Aliyot/Return from Exile, 1948, the incredible victories of Am Yisrael in 1967 and 1973, Jewish Sovereignty over Jerusalem, the building and renewed fruitfulness of the Land, the rebuilding of Torah throughout Israel (like never existed even in Europe), your and my Aliya..in short the wonderment for Eretz Yisrael/Medinat Yisrael, is deeply spiritual. Beit Hamikdash really IS (fact of the ground) closer than in 1945. <br />Rituals such as Yom Ha'Atzmaut, Yom Hazicharon, Yom Yerushalaim, prayer for the Medina and for the Chayalim, are a spiritually honest recognition of this. <br />2. A full-hearted acceptance of and participation in the benefits of science, technology, medicine...in playing our part in the march of Progress. (While being suitably cautious about negative impact of TV, internet, etc).<br />3. Torah with Derech Eretz (in the sense of integrating our 100% halachik life in a 21st Century context here in Israel).<br /><br />Some of the great DL institutions are Hesder Yeshivot, Sherut Leumi, Religious Youth Movements (Bnei Akiva, Ariel, Ezra..etc), Bar Ilan University, Machon Lev (beit medrash plus science/engineering), the countless Yishuvim and new towns, kibbutzim, yeshivot ketanot and gevo'ot, the national religious education system (Mamad) for kids throughout the country, the availability of kosher food in every store throughout Israel, etc.etc.. <br /><br />In all these cases, the DL are "out there" - building, contributing, giving.<br /><br />In short - there's a lot for the DL to be proud of in our accomplishments over just the past couple of generations.<br /><br />Schools: Our girls went through Ulpanat Gila - they've turned out fantastic - frum, ideological, committed, with trully awesome midot. Their friends also came through very nicely!<br /><br />Note: BTW, the "statistics" about DL kids becoming secular are incorrect. In some yishuvim they were seeing a phenomenon of "kipa hazruka" about 10 years ago - reportedly sometimes as high as 15-20%; the average was far lower. What seems to have happened is many of these 18-19 yo kids who tossed out their kippot, put their kippot back on and rejoined the fold later (in their mid-20's). Also there's drift rightwards, as some grow long peot and out-sized kippot srugot; some put on black kipot (living in a place like RBS gives kids that choice too). Kids in all streams are dynamic, moving in either direction. <br /><br />My 2 Cents!<br /><br />(I'm totally biased; I washed up as a teen at Machon Meir, and fell in love with Eretz Yisrael and the whole shleimut of DL Torani. My passion has been constant since!)David Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18054370508508714804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-7581138032971524902009-12-04T17:38:40.230+02:002009-12-04T17:38:40.230+02:00We really should get rid of the canard that most D...We really should get rid of the canard that most Dati kids do not keep Shabbat after the army. It has been raised for 60 years, and it just isn't so. There is little hard data on this; and most folks who spread this aren't part of the Dati veterans of Tzahal.<br /><br />Like others, I have plenty to say on the topic. Someone's comment here about Dati Leumi girls going to Sherut Leumi pointed me in the direction.<br /><br />Among the prides of the Dati Leumi path is Hesder. It is a symbol; but what does it symbolize? Service and hesed to the larger community of Israel from firmly within the beit midrash. It is no accident that places like Yeshivat Hesder Kiryat Shemonah have received awards for the student's ongoing public service and impact on the surrounding communities. Girls are similarly educated in terms of devotion to Hashem and His Torah, and service to Israel. The idea that my children would be educated on a path where commitment to Torah includes contribution to the greater society as a driving value, a sometimes unspoken foundation, is very important to me. The move up of Aliyah includes a move to continuing involvement in the development of the Jewish people.<br /><br />Ask yourself, 'where do I want to see my daughter in 10 years? With what accomplishments? Devoted to which causes? With what kind of education?'<br /><br />There is no question that the many subcultures in Israel create different experiences. Much is changing and evolving with kibbutz galuyot and the influences on each other; but in any given moment definite values and experiences can be isolated.<br /><br />I, for instance, am constantly dismayed and disgusted when I read about the issues people have with shidduchim. The distortions and extortions that come into play are something I never heard of as a young Dati Leumi person (though honestly we didn't use any such labels), and I take that as symbolic and symptomatic of a culture with values that I eschew. That's my visceral reaction.<br /><br />Some of these problems caused me to write a comment on BeyondBT about differences between the subculture I came from (Dati Leumi) and where most of the BeyondBT readers seem to be (Haredi). It is here: http://www.beyondbt.com/2006/05/15/rav-kooks-vision-of-tshuva-and-the-ease-of-bt-integration/<br /><br />I think one of the greatest thinkers and proponents of a balanced approach advocated by Torah is Rav Aharon Lichtenstein. His essay, The Ideology of Hesder, isolates the philosophical elements and tensions that many of us who may be Dati Leumi oriented have to contend with. It is also a fine piece of exposition from a very significant talmid hacham. If my children ended up his students, I would be very proud indeed. The essay is seminal and well worth reading. It is here: http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/ral2-hes.htm and can also be found in his book Leaves of Faith. It has far greater implications than 'should boys serve in the army?'<br /><br />Consider the kind of thinking that Rav Lichtenstein displays in that essay. If that sort of balance and concern is how you want to educate your children, if that is why you came to Israel (ashreicha!), then point them clearly in that direction.Mordechai Y. Scherhttp://www.kolberamah.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-42571040451000837822009-12-04T15:21:49.988+02:002009-12-04T15:21:49.988+02:00I won't react to percentages of DL who leave t...I won't react to percentages of DL who leave the fold,obviously it happens.Let's be realistic it also happens in the Chareidi world only they don't talk about it out loud.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-30349513502238916522009-12-04T11:58:40.425+02:002009-12-04T11:58:40.425+02:00regarding the 31% stat: a statement like that is b...regarding the 31% stat: a statement like that is basically worthless. who are they looking at? every kid who goes to a mamlakhti dati school is defined as DL? every kid who goes to a private date school? every kid who goes to hesder? <br /><br />yes, it is known to everyone that not every kid who learns at a mamlakhti dati school is really dati. they are traditional, maybe the school is a good school, whatever. so after the army not every kid will be shomer shabbat. because it is entirely possible that they weren't shomer shabbat before they went in.<br /><br />the same can be said for nagiya and every other issue.Ben Waxmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-53641666566632878812009-12-04T09:02:30.940+02:002009-12-04T09:02:30.940+02:00I hear what you are saying about the schools and h...I hear what you are saying about the schools and have thought about it too, but I really believe that you need to be consistent hashkafically - if you are DL at home, you need to send to DL schools. Otherwise what message are you sending to your child about the derech you have chosen?<br />If you send to charedi schools, you need to become charedi - and really believe in it. Can you do that? Only you know.<br />B'hatzlacha raba!educatingmomhttp://educatingmom.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.com