tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post8938955701194398605..comments2024-03-28T21:53:53.990+02:00Comments on Life in Israel: Did Rachel Imeinu appear or not?Rafi G.http://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-73675835937272239632009-01-27T16:50:00.000+02:002009-01-27T16:50:00.000+02:00*** Rafi not Rafi G ***Looks like I'm confusing a ...*** Rafi not Rafi G ***<BR/><BR/>Looks like I'm confusing a lot of people...<BR/><BR/>Bli neder I'll mark all my posts here prominently in future.Rafi (S)https://www.blogger.com/profile/18103892755392538611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-13176813192313508422009-01-27T14:57:00.000+02:002009-01-27T14:57:00.000+02:00Ha! As I was reading, I was gettin more and more c...Ha! As I was reading, I was gettin more and more confused..only towards the end did it dawn on me that twas the "other" rafi...the sabrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07134516234799909775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-4301087133747048692009-01-27T09:38:00.000+02:002009-01-27T09:38:00.000+02:00Just to make sure you noticed the last post was fr...Just to make sure you noticed the last post was from <B>Rafi</B> and not RafiG :-).Rafi (S)https://www.blogger.com/profile/18103892755392538611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-27668731670113053912009-01-27T09:36:00.000+02:002009-01-27T09:36:00.000+02:00It looks like it's all been said but all the same:...It looks like it's all been said but all the same:<BR/><BR/>1. How do we know the story occurred?<BR/>2. If it did, then where does this far out interpretation of it being Rahel Imenu come from?<BR/><BR/>There are so many other plausible explanations for who this woman was, that the readiness of anybody to accept the Rahel Imenu explanation, just seems incredible.<BR/><BR/>Rather than spinning supernatural stories, let's have some hakaras hatov for the good palestinians who helped our boys.<BR/><BR/>And BTW, Shaul I agree with you that inspirational urban legends are anti-chinuch. I made sure my children know where I stand on this one, though unfortunately some of their teachers at school had taken the opposite stance.Rafi (S)https://www.blogger.com/profile/18103892755392538611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-44404786286618353962009-01-26T20:30:00.000+02:002009-01-26T20:30:00.000+02:00"Blogger Shaul Behr said... DS: yep, I think that..."Blogger Shaul Behr said...<BR/> DS: yep, I think that's a positive ID on the source of this urban legend...<BR/> Attaboy, Sherlock!"<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Let's give credit where credit is due: It was Rochel Imeinu that told me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-15052258819126742362009-01-26T18:57:00.000+02:002009-01-26T18:57:00.000+02:00Rafi-Yes, I wish I'd thought of either of them! :...Rafi-<BR/>Yes, I wish I'd thought of either of them! :)Shaul Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13657787388625188732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-74744866826444962632009-01-26T18:43:00.000+02:002009-01-26T18:43:00.000+02:00the condemnation was good, but I liked the "switch...the condemnation was good, but I liked the "switching with Leah " joke even more!Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-51069680336861094472009-01-26T18:24:00.000+02:002009-01-26T18:24:00.000+02:00DS: yep, I think that's a positive ID on the sourc...DS: yep, I think that's a positive ID on the source of this urban legend...<BR/>Attaboy, Sherlock!<BR/>:)Shaul Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13657787388625188732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-80054494851889573262009-01-26T18:22:00.000+02:002009-01-26T18:22:00.000+02:00Lurker: LOL :DI love the UNHCR condemnation - that...Lurker: <BR/>LOL :D<BR/>I <B>love</B> the UNHCR condemnation - that got a belly laugh out of me... :)Shaul Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13657787388625188732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-7403664357622441842009-01-26T18:05:00.000+02:002009-01-26T18:05:00.000+02:00Interesting hos this story has evolved, by the way...Interesting hos this story has evolved, by the way. Read the following, which is taken from Lazer Brody's Blog. I believe that the Rochel story started with him.<BR/><BR/>His "sounds like Rochel" has become Rochel for sure, identifying herself, and becoming a beautiful young woman (alternatively an old one) speaking Arabic (alternatively Hebrew).<BR/><BR/>The Land of Miracles<BR/><BR/>Friday at noon is a time of hustle and bustle in Israel - people are coming home from work and/or from the marketplace, having made last-minute purchases of fresh challas, fruit, and fish for Shabbat. Despite the ongoing war, people here continue to live their lives. There were plenty of pedestrians and vehicles in the area when the Red-Alert alarm sounded; the pedestrians ran for cover. The motorists pulled over to the side of the road. Usually when a terrifying Grad rocket falls, it makes a tremendous boom (from the crash of the missile on the ground), followed by an afterblast from the explosion of its warhead. This missile landed, shaking the earth with an enormous thud, but the afterblast never came. The missile failed to explode. No one was scratched...<BR/><BR/>Another missile landed near a gas pipeline. The pipeline was undergoing maintenance and had been emptied of gas a few days previously.<BR/><BR/>Just now, right after midnight on Saturday night, an emotional father from Jerusalem called me and said that he had something important to tell me. His son is an NCO is a special forces unit operating in Gaza. He and his squad were about to storm a house with suspected Hamas terrorists inside. A woman in long black local attire came out and pleaded with them not to storm the house. During the fierce house-to-house fighting, the same woman appeared to the NCO and his unit in three other houses. It turned out that all four houses were booby-trapped.<BR/><BR/>Who was that woman? Sounds to me like Rachel Imenu...<BR/><BR/>Hashem is surely giving us wake-up calls, but He's also showing us just how much He loves us.<BR/><BR/>We had a quiet Shabbat night, but two missiles were fired at us right before Mincha, a 4:10 and 4:15 PM on Shabbat. Both landed in non-populated areas.<BR/><BR/>Every cloud has a silver lining with Hashem's signature on it. Have a wonderful week.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-47678495799483480162009-01-26T17:57:00.000+02:002009-01-26T17:57:00.000+02:00There is plenty of reason to say that it did not h...There is plenty of reason to say that it did not happen.<BR/><BR/>Given that according to the story it was witnessed by many soldiers, yet not a single one has come forward, we have to either ascribe it to outright fiction or, alternatively, as a Meretz conspiracy to silence those who would cause many to become ba'alei teshuva.<BR/><BR/>Of course, the clamp down on all witnesses would have to be total, as not even one has come forward to bask in the media frenzy that awaits him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-58483923641947572702009-01-26T17:31:00.000+02:002009-01-26T17:31:00.000+02:00This just in:UN Human Rights Council votes 33-1 to...This just in:<BR/><BR/><I><B>UN Human Rights Council votes 33-1 to condemn Rachel Imeinu for providing assistance and intelligence data to Zionist war criminals in Gaza</B><BR/>Resolution dismisses Matriarch's <A HREF="http://joesettler.blogspot.com/2009/01/message-from-rachel-imeinu-communicated.html" REL="nofollow">denial of involvement</A> as 'Zionist disinformation'</I>Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-61251668436085411842009-01-26T17:30:00.000+02:002009-01-26T17:30:00.000+02:00Did it happen? Did Rachel Imeinu really show up a...<I>Did it happen? Did Rachel Imeinu really show up and save our troops?</I><BR/><BR/>Before trying to determine whether the story is true, I would suggest trying to determine whether anyone involved ever <I>told</I> such a story in the first place.<BR/><BR/>Who, exactly, are the soldiers to whom this woman allegedly spoke? What are their names? Did any of them provide a written account of it? Did any of them describe it in an interview on the radio, television, or in a newspaper? Can you provide links or references to any such accounts?<BR/><BR/>I have not seen any such evidence that any soldier even <I>claims</I> that this story happened to him -- and I strongly suspect that there isn't any. Until somebody produces at least evidence of a <I>claim</I> by a soldier to have spoken to such a woman, this whole thing is a waste of time to even talk about.Lurkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05516196101946513020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-86573734884695997012009-01-26T16:39:00.000+02:002009-01-26T16:39:00.000+02:00Menachem that first line had me laugh out loud :DMenachem that first line had me laugh out loud :Dthe sabrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07134516234799909775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-41841499559234574272009-01-26T16:28:00.000+02:002009-01-26T16:28:00.000+02:00I agree with DS. Which is why I said I have no ide...<I>I agree with DS. Which is why I said I have no idea if it did happen, but I have no reason to say it could not happen.</I><BR/><BR/>Rafi, this statement is a red herring. Nobody is arguing that there is no reason it <I>could</I> not happen. Like I said, we believe in an all-powerful God. But there are many reasons why it <I>did</I> not happen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-59635352724267464132009-01-26T16:16:00.000+02:002009-01-26T16:16:00.000+02:00DS - exactly. And the corrolary is true: since no...DS - exactly. And the corrolary is true: since nobody has reported first hand on this story, it is fair to assume that the story <B>is</B> false.Shaul Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13657787388625188732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-75726533322701305262009-01-26T16:01:00.000+02:002009-01-26T16:01:00.000+02:00I agree with DS. Which is why I said I have no ide...I agree with DS. Which is why I said I have no idea if it did happen, but I have no reason to say it could not happenRafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-60427686864354595012009-01-26T15:59:00.000+02:002009-01-26T15:59:00.000+02:00The issue here is process.The question is one of m...The issue here is process.<BR/>The question is one of metzius: Did this happen pr did it not.<BR/><BR/>When faced with such a question, regarding an event that took place less than a month ago and to which there would be many eyewitnesses, who are readily available and undoubtedly eager to share the miracle story, why shouldn't we say, "Well, where are the witnesses?" (Even one!)<BR/><BR/>The issue is not a theological one as to what HASHEM could to and would do, but one of metzius regarding a very recent event.<BR/><BR/>WHat process should we use for determining this?<BR/><BR/>Why,, as intelligent people, should we accept the version of those who have no more evidence than we do ourselves?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-66004615219552698162009-01-26T15:57:00.000+02:002009-01-26T15:57:00.000+02:00It seems pretty clear now that it wasn't Rochel. ...It seems pretty clear now that it wasn't Rochel. Apparently when the soldiers woke up in the morning they realized it was Leah. :)<BR/><BR/>Seriously, I agree with everything Shaul said. <BR/><BR/>Of course, Jews who believe in God and the Torah, can never say that this can't happen. We believe that Hashem can do anything. But there's a huge leap between saying that it can happen and saying that it did happen. And one can "believe" anything they want, but it definitely undermines the credibility of our religion when these urban legends get passed around as fact. It's not a harmless belief.<BR/><BR/>Further, while I have great respect for Rabbis Yosef and Eliyahu, it is the height of irresponsibility for them to use their positions to validate something they can't possibly know without having witnessed it first hand.<BR/><BR/>There's no reason that Palestianian women weren't out there helping our soldiers. Many Palestinians risked, and gave, their lives to assist us in the success of this mission. If we have a simple, plausible, explanation like that, why do we have to twist ourselves into metaphysical pretzels?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-58350066130813570942009-01-26T11:39:00.000+02:002009-01-26T11:39:00.000+02:00Whether the story as told is true or not, and I'll...Whether the story as told is true or not, and I'll note I've definitely heard it grow a beard as I've heard it told back to me from 5 different people, it's impact is another matter.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/2009/01/momma-rochel-brings-teshuva.html" REL="nofollow">See this post here</A> for my first hand account of hearing this story being told in a secular setting in Tel Aviv.Akivahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13042484533217272945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-89866889897641192552009-01-26T11:18:00.000+02:002009-01-26T11:18:00.000+02:00Shaul, I agree with you, and I think that many rab...Shaul, I agree with you, and I think that many rabbis throughout the generations have already done a fabulous job undercutting their credibility.<BR/>vd"l.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-74867039778258662122009-01-26T09:59:00.000+02:002009-01-26T09:59:00.000+02:00i agree with you that it doesnt matter if it reall...i agree with you that it doesnt matter if it really happened or not. I choose to believe it did, and I am content believing that (sorry Shaul). When it comes to miracles, the idea is what they do for us, nor whether we have a bedtime story to tell. It will strengthen my emuna to know that Gd is sending messengers down to help us. that is simply the level of our emunah these days, like you mentioned.<BR/><BR/>Besides that i think it is humurous that everyone is quoting Rav Eliyhau. All he said is that he davened for her to help her children, and then commented, seemingly humurously: "did she say i sent her?" Thats like something i would say to friend of mine. He didnt readily admit that it was her, as much as he admitted to the possibility that maybe it was her.<BR/><BR/>I don't have a problem with it either way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-14415549145683037512009-01-26T09:31:00.000+02:002009-01-26T09:31:00.000+02:00The classic sign of an urban legend is that the st...The classic sign of an urban legend is that the story happened to "somebody", even a 2nd degree contact of the person relating the story - but never a 1st degree contact, and certainly never in the first person.<BR/><BR/>This story, as beautiful and as inspiring as it may be, fits perfectly into this definition.<BR/><BR/>Chitznik asks, "have there been any interviews yet with those soldiers reportedly involved?" Chitznik, I think you already know the answer to your own question.<BR/><BR/>No, there have been no interviews. Nor will there be. Because it didn't happen.<BR/><BR/>Let me be clear - there was definitely an unprecedented level of siyata dishmaya in the Gaza campaign. Our soldiers were protected to a practically unnatural extent from any harm, and we owe an enormous hakaras haTov to HKBH for the fact that He watched over His people with such care. But it was all "al derech hateva". I do not think that Hashem needed to resurrect Rachel Imenu in order to protect the soldiers; the rule is that Hashem interacts with the world through natural means.<BR/><BR/>And yes, the same goes for all the chassidishe maaselach, and the Golem of Prague, too. Lo haya, v'lo nivra. <BR/><BR/>It's a terrible pity that people need to clutch at these little stories to strengthen their faith, and even worse that we bring children up on them, because when they get older, wiser and more cynical, they start doubting these stories, and that undermines <B>everything</B> that we have taught them. Children trust everything their parents say, because we establish credibility for ourselves when the hot stove really does burn, and when the medicine we give them really does make them feel better. When we foist cheap inspirational stories on our children, as if they're the truth, we undercut our credibility, and you have no idea just how catastrophic that is for chinuch. If the Golem of Prague didn't really happen, and Aba said it did, maybe Matan Torah didn't really happen either (C"V)?<BR/><BR/>Beware of these "inspirational" stories - they are a double-edged sword.Shaul Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13657787388625188732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-64871319359653463732009-01-26T09:18:00.000+02:002009-01-26T09:18:00.000+02:00I am not aware of any interview.I am not aware of any interview.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-57721828564521185382009-01-26T08:46:00.000+02:002009-01-26T08:46:00.000+02:00have there been any interviews yet with those sold...have there been any interviews yet with those soldiers reportedly involved?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com