tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post114968058416370235..comments2024-03-29T11:40:46.477+03:00Comments on Life in Israel: A faulty systemRafi G.http://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150358807310179212006-06-15T11:06:00.000+03:002006-06-15T11:06:00.000+03:00meier - who are goldstein and pinar?meier - who are goldstein and pinar?Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150351266136914052006-06-15T09:01:00.000+03:002006-06-15T09:01:00.000+03:00Dear MR. Anonymous (the first one),you are a no go...Dear MR. Anonymous (the first one),<BR/><BR/>you are a no good stinky head and you should be put in cheirem. Goldstein and Pinar are very against you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150306144314751852006-06-14T20:29:00.000+03:002006-06-14T20:29:00.000+03:00anon - there are scum and cheats and connivers and...anon - there are scum and cheats and connivers and manipulators and bad people wherever you go and whatever the system of the community may be. There will always be people who cheat and take advantage of the situation and manipulate people's guilt and religion to get something for nothing. I do believe the majority of people are not like that though..<BR/>I judge similarly. when people come collecting I give and say God will judge whether he took honestly or not..Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150305692936750552006-06-14T20:21:00.000+03:002006-06-14T20:21:00.000+03:00The other day we were in the final hours of a big ...The other day we were in the final hours of a big food sale at an event. A man who is a local shnorrer came by and asked if we had leftover food. We were selling out like hotcakes and running short, but we gave him a plate. He then comes back 2 minutes later asking for a free drink. We handed him one and continued with the steady stream of customers. 15 minutes later he comes back and asks if there are more leftovers. My husband told him that he is taking advantage and it is not right. The man becam indignant and started shouting "Ever heard of chesed? Ever heard of tzedaka!!!" He made a commotion and we gave him more food to quiet him down and he went on his way. This is a man who comes to every community festival, picnic, gathering and preys on orthodox people's obligation/desire to give tzedaka.<BR/><BR/>He makes no attempt to work and, in fact, makes his meager living by gambling on lawsuits. He trips, falls, slips, bangs into public buidling and sidewalks, then sues property owners. He also has single-handedly helped to drive good doctors out of our state by sueing for malpractice any chance he gets. Fortunately, most of his unfounded cases get thrown out of court. But he has made a mint on several. He makes no bones about the fact that he doesn't work and claims he can't get a job. So, the community lifts him up as well as many others like him.<BR/><BR/>I know it is not my cheshbon to judge - I give the tzedaka and G-d judges the person who asks if it was really necessary. It still is hard to swallow, though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150303704641499672006-06-14T19:48:00.000+03:002006-06-14T19:48:00.000+03:00team driver - good point.team driver - good point.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150303668602446292006-06-14T19:47:00.000+03:002006-06-14T19:47:00.000+03:00Dan - "sect" was not a choice. I was born and rais...Dan - "sect" was not a choice. I was born and raised orthodox. Yes, I choose to remain orthodox, but there is a difference between choosing to do something and choosing to stop doing something. <BR/><BR/>I say religious/religious rather than orthodox/conservative/reform because that's what it is here in Israel. There are conservative and reform communities, but the overwhelming vast majority of Israelis who are not orthodox are not religious. They are not conservative or reform. When they choose to do something they choose to do it Orthodox. Here it seems it is mostly accepted that the choices are ortho or not religious. Obviously conservative and reform are trying to change that and maybe their numbers are slightly growing, but I have heard from a number of Israeli not-religious people that they choose not to be religious, but when they feel like doing something religious they know Orthodox is the right way, not conservative/reform. <BR/><BR/>I choose to remain orthodox because I believe in it. While maybe there are some issues that Conservative/reform react better to, mainly liberalism, overall I do not feel that is the way to go. I do not want to get into a debate which group is better and why or why not. I am not familiar with all the practices of all the various groups or sects, nor am I an expert in the arguments. I read the "debate" book between Rabbis Reinman and Hirsch "One people Two Worlds" (or whatever it was called) a couple of times and I honestly felt that aside from maybe one issue, the Orthodox position was much stronger and showed much more integrity. The Reform side showed more liberalism and dynamism, but I do nto feel it is for me. I believe, and while maybe I am nto happy with everything that happens in Orthodoxy, that is not a reason to give it up (for me). If I was not religious and felt like becoming religious, maybe I would choose otherwise, I do not know. But I am religious and Orthodox and see nothing that convinces me to change that.<BR/><BR/>School choice I do not really want to get into. Maybe at a later date. I am happy with certain aspects of the schooling and unhappy with other aspects. I am not confident we made the right choice, but right now that is where we are at. We still debate it out between us about the schooling issues every now and again..Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150295081903680902006-06-14T17:24:00.001+03:002006-06-14T17:24:00.001+03:00"if you choose to be not religious it is not polar..."if you choose to be not religious it is not polarized among the not religious community."<BR/><BR/>forgive my nitpicking but I am sure you mean 'orthodox' instead of 'religious.'<BR/><BR/>But I get what you mean. <BR/><BR/>I am curious though, and feel free not to answer if you don't care to, why those other sects are not in your list of choices? I ask specifically because of the orthodox vs. religious terminology. You can be,for example, conservative and religious. Orthodox doesn't by definition mean one is religious, it is merely a sect, a community of like minded people in a sociological setting. If you believe in the torah and that it was handed down etc.. you can practice that and be religious without being a member of that particular sect. So I guess my question is why the ortho sect as oppossed to anouther?<BR/><BR/>What are the benefits and problems that weighed on your decision both with school choice and sect choice.<BR/><BR/>If you care to share.<BR/><BR/>P.S. I think Dad just got on the plane.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150295065906126332006-06-14T17:24:00.000+03:002006-06-14T17:24:00.000+03:00"if you choose to be not religious it is not polar..."if you choose to be not religious it is not polarized among the not religious community."<BR/><BR/>forgive my nitpicking but I am sure you mean 'orthodox' instead of 'religious.'<BR/><BR/>But I get what you mean. <BR/><BR/>I am curious though, and feel free not to answer if you don't care to, why those other sects are not in your list of choices? I ask specifically because of the orthodox vs. religious terminology. You can be,for example, conservative and religious. Orthodox doesn't by definition mean one is religious, it is merely a sect, a community of like minded people in a sociological setting. If you believe in the torah and that it was handed down etc.. you can practice that and be religious without being a member of that particular sect. So I guess my question is why the ortho sect as oppossed to anouther?<BR/><BR/>What are the benefits and problems that weighed on your decision both with school choice and sect choice.<BR/><BR/>If you care to share.<BR/><BR/>P.S. I think Dad just got on the plane.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150271804022709442006-06-14T10:56:00.000+03:002006-06-14T10:56:00.000+03:00i didnt read all the comments yet, but i will add ...i didnt read all the comments yet, but i will add to the chulent pot with the following comment: This world is not olam habah. We have to work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150236135677752032006-06-14T01:02:00.000+03:002006-06-14T01:02:00.000+03:00good for you! at least you discuss it. I like ar...good for you! at least you discuss it. I like arie crown alot, but am scared to death for our high school choices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150219679505989652006-06-13T20:27:00.000+03:002006-06-13T20:27:00.000+03:00Shaya - not to "dis" Modiin, from the friends of m...Shaya - not to "dis" Modiin, from the friends of mine who have moved there and the little I know about it, I feel Modiin is more of something like Hillel Torah rather than Arie Crown. Not that that that is bad, but it is not for us...<BR/>You are right. We choose to live here. There are wonderful people here and we have a nice community. The shul we daven in is not "taliban" style. Some wear hats and some do not. Some have kipa sruga (though most wear black). A full range of schools is represented in my shul - from the most haredi to very zionist and even religious public school. We do not have commmunal pressure to send where we send. If anything, the opposite. we are in the minority in our shul sending to such a Haredi school.. <BR/>You are right. That was our choice and we will live with it. Maybe later it will change. Every niow and then we re-argue out the issues of the schools...Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150219101812911532006-06-13T20:18:00.000+03:002006-06-13T20:18:00.000+03:00Dan - you are right, if you choose to be not relig...Dan - you are right, if you choose to be not religious it is not polarized among the not religious community. However we are not choosing to be not religious, secular or Conservative or Reform. Those are not options we are choosing from or are interested in choosing from. Being that we are religious, all religious areas are polarized. Either national religious or haredi or whatever other sub-groub you wisjh t o label a neighborhood.<BR/><BR/>There is diversity in my neighborhood. There are also schools that provide a better secular education in my neighborhood than the schools my kids go to. However, we chose these schools because the other schools while they have a better secular education have other issues we did not like. You are right. This is what we chose. I did nto say there were no other options. I said this is what we chose. I am not 100% happy with the choice, but that is the choice and we live with it. Maybe one day we will change our decision for a different option, but right now this is what we chose.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150215523063549772006-06-13T19:18:00.000+03:002006-06-13T19:18:00.000+03:00actually, w/o knowing the full neighborhoods, I kn...actually, w/o knowing the full neighborhoods, I know of 2 families who in the last 2 years made aliyah to Modi'in. The feel that it is very much like arie crown. Frum, Learned, yet liberal and not fundamentalist - as dad calls them - "the jewish Taliban". So while modi'in may not be everyone's answer, there are more centrally polarized communities that you chose to not live in. you chose a place that rapidly went psycho. yes, there are wonderful people living there - but you know what I mean. I don't think there is any question that in terms of hashkafa, you are not on the same page (or even book with some of them) as the rest of your neighbors. This is not an insult. It is a difference. You choose and chose to live there. It's like that kolel guy - your choice, but there are other choices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150208236536803722006-06-13T17:17:00.000+03:002006-06-13T17:17:00.000+03:00"as I said life here is more polarized and you do ..."as I said life here is more polarized and you do not get the middle ground as clearly as you can in the US..."<BR/><BR/>Not living in Israel I hesitate to say anything about life there,however, I have found that the further to one side a person is the harder it is to find middle ground. Compromise and finding likeminded people apparantly has more to do with the individual than society. So whole lifemay be more polarized in ramat bet shemesh or in geula or meah shearim or bnei brak it may be less polarized and more diverse in tel-aviv or hod-hasharon. <BR/>Its hard to imagine that among 6 mil jews you can't find a diverse and accepting community...but maybe Im wrong.<BR/><BR/>I guess my point is really this, people used to tell me that if you don't raise your kids ortho, and send to an ortho school etc. then you are not giving your kid the full package of what life has to offer. So it really is a question of what will benefit the kid most as an education and lifestyle. <BR/><BR/>If you believe that learning in the kollel style is best for the kids and that vocational school offers all they will need then gezuntaheit. But, I don't nessasarily agree. I don't disagree either but do they have doctor vocational schools? lawyer? engineer? marine biologist?<BR/><BR/>We grew up in amuch more diversecommunity and I can say unequivicoly that I feel short shrifted by the education I recieved and I know how much harder I had to work to get an education once I left the community. <BR/><BR/>So I guess first you have to agree with the hashkofa, then you also have to agree with the system. And if you don't agree you have to weigh that against what is the middle ground offering. And you have to figure out what the middle ground is, is it mizrachi or conservative or reform. I know Israel has a huge conservative community that is very diverse and accepting. <BR/><BR/>So its not that there is no middle ground, it is that your community would not accept you looking for a middle ground.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150181810808217062006-06-13T09:56:00.000+03:002006-06-13T09:56:00.000+03:00Black hatters = b"h'ersBlack hatters = b"h'ersAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150175013874920232006-06-13T08:03:00.000+03:002006-06-13T08:03:00.000+03:00what are b"hers?what are b"hers?Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150148757771548692006-06-13T00:45:00.000+03:002006-06-13T00:45:00.000+03:00I wish you both the best of luck.Why don't you guy...I wish you both the best of luck.<BR/><BR/>Why don't you guys come over to my side? Jump in the waters' fine. <BR/><BR/>Seriously. We all think that the b'h ers havehijacked ortho judaism, so why not go at least right wing conservative? like opa.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150141733691380542006-06-12T22:48:00.000+03:002006-06-12T22:48:00.000+03:00I am not sure how to argue this because I am not s...I am not sure how to argue this because I am not sure we are doing the right thing. W ehave argued these exact points among ourselves a number of times. by "we will be in trouble" I mean we will later have to deal with the problem of our kids not having an education and needing to get a job. The only comfort I have is that we do have a more liberal household and they will always be able to go to vocational school of some sort and learn how to do something, even if they are starting out as underdogs. They will not have the family pressure against getting jobs and going to army, but will have our full support if they decide to do so. <BR/><BR/>ON your last comment, I can say "Nichamtani" - you have comforted me. If you send your kids to Arie Crown and have the same problem, I don't feel quite as bad any longer...Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150136653787441712006-06-12T21:24:00.000+03:002006-06-12T21:24:00.000+03:00wimpy, wimpy, wimpy....btw, it isn't any more cent...wimpy, wimpy, wimpy....<BR/><BR/>btw, it isn't any more centralized here in the USA. The Bh'ers are constantly trying to hijack the schools and threaten kids about being accepted to high school and all sorts of other threats. as I stated earlier, Matis, and more so with my girls, are going to be a problem for high school. <BR/><BR/>good luck, I am going to rely on "shomair p'sa'im ha'shem" myself. I can only hope and pray that one day, God looks downs at us Jews and sees the mess we've made of the religion he gave moshe and a Bas kol comes out and says "NOW CUT THAT SH-T OUT - I'VE NEVER SAID THAT"!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150135264844669582006-06-12T21:01:00.000+03:002006-06-12T21:01:00.000+03:00it is easy to look for diversity but those other s...it is easy to look for diversity but those other schools have pther problems. We chose this on a combination of advise asked and received and a decision of which problems we wanted to deal with..<BR/><BR/>as I said life here is more polarized and you do not get the middle ground as clearly as you can in the US...Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150135203332938752006-06-12T21:00:00.000+03:002006-06-12T21:00:00.000+03:00SORRY RAF - this time i agree with danny - what th...SORRY RAF - this time i agree with danny - what the hell does "we will be in trouble" mean? trouble - what are you gonna get a "potch"? Maybe you won't get an aliyah? sorry, we are big boys now, there is no "trouble" you couldn't handle. Unless....you or your wife, are trying to fit into a system that maybe, YOU, don't really belong. kinda of like ma. you are doing the same thing. wanna look and act frumer, but your hashkafa isn't on the same level. I only know that doesn't work out for most people in the long run.<BR/>You're not alone in this problem, but your response is juvenile. (coming from me, that's pretty bad - lol)<BR/><BR/>shayaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150134539655744282006-06-12T20:48:00.000+03:002006-06-12T20:48:00.000+03:00"and we are stuck with the system."why? are there ..."and we are stuck with the system."<BR/><BR/>why? are there no schools that offer a more complete education? Chicago has a far smaller community and while high school is a huge problem for the orthodox at least for grade school arie crown seems to offer a comprehensive education. Are there no arie crown style schools in israel?<BR/><BR/>"Sending them elsewhere is a very big change we do not want to make, and we will be in trouble for it. "<BR/><BR/>not wanting to change is different then being in trouble...but what does that mean you will be in "trouble?" With who? these are your kids not someone elses...what do you care what anyone thinks and why would you let that get in the way of what you think is best for them? <BR/><BR/>"Sam Malone method"<BR/>I just gave that answer to meier for a question he had...isn't it interesting what sticks with us. But, seriously, taking advice from fictional charachters doesn't really work(except for advice from the simpsons).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150130553086121822006-06-12T19:42:00.000+03:002006-06-12T19:42:00.000+03:00I do not have a satisfactory answer. I know we are...I do not have a satisfactory answer. I know we are setting ourselves up for trouble. Life in Israel is very polarized and we are stuck with the system. Sending them elsewhere is a very big change we do not want to make, and we will be in trouble for it. We have agonized over it a lot and are not making that change (yet?).<BR/>I don't have an answer.. it is a problem. Maybe the Sam Malone method of problem solving will work.. :-)Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1150128336948494922006-06-12T19:05:00.000+03:002006-06-12T19:05:00.000+03:00so - what's your plan then? Now that you've admit...so - what's your plan then? Now that you've admitted there's a problem, you've written a blog about apotential issue for your own kids to run into, why keep them in the program they're in? how do you plan on preventing them from falling into the same "matzav" as that poor kollel fellow? You are maskim that you aren't supplementing. So.....? Do you just assume "shomer p'sa'im hashem"? and no - do not use the excuse - "oh it's too late now, the kids have friends and they're so far along". that excuse will not fly.<BR/><BR/>I understand that people don't like change, but it is sometimes necessary. Dad loves chopped liver - but if he wants to live to see more chasunos, he had to give it up. If it's not the best place for your kids,as you are now maskim, then what's your solution?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1149969233421063992006-06-10T22:53:00.000+03:002006-06-10T22:53:00.000+03:00I hear you. We send our kids to a school that has ...I hear you. We send our kids to a school that has absolutely fabulous Torah studies but nothing of secular studies (other than basic math). We do so because we were advised to stress that and we could make up the rest "at home".<BR/>While we successfully make up the liberalism at home and acceptance of Jews of other colors and types, we never get around to making up the secular studies. There is nothing like a school setting.. it just does not happen. <BR/>I hear your pointRafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.com