tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post3624389685279538358..comments2024-03-28T09:43:50.919+02:00Comments on Life in Israel: The RBS mikva issue is over... or is it?Rafi G.http://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-76279240337609246612010-05-12T17:31:40.722+03:002010-05-12T17:31:40.722+03:00With kashrus they seem to manage putting two hechs...With kashrus they seem to manage putting two hechsherim on one product, why can't they with a mikva.anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-86271166140954536712010-05-12T17:03:56.756+03:002010-05-12T17:03:56.756+03:00that is far from the standard opinion even among h...that is far from the standard opinion even among haredi rabbonim. Perhaps among the more extreme rabbonim that is the opinion, but it is not the standard. Most say it is kosher and we are mehader for better.<br />I personally have asked a number of rabbonim, even Rav Sheinberg, and have been told that even if I normally do not, in certain situations I can rely on Rabbanut. It is kosher, but we are mehader for better and chumras, but in certain situations it is fine to rely on rabbanut. <br />I assume the same is for mikvas especially since the differences are far fewer than the differences by kashrus.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-79401805209309453802010-05-12T16:48:29.698+03:002010-05-12T16:48:29.698+03:00so you mean that this is not about halacha, rather...so you mean that this is not about halacha, rather (just like kashrus) it is just about sinah to anyone who doesn't dress/act like them?ynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-39978268602405152462010-05-12T15:57:20.339+03:002010-05-12T15:57:20.339+03:00I have no special connection to any of the rabboni...I have no special connection to any of the rabbonim involved, am just a regular mispalel who davens all over in different shuls. I asked a couple of different local Rabbonim about why this is a fight and can't find an easy solution such as the ones suggested in the post (or others). The rabbonim (chareidim) say unequivocally that just like kashrus run by dati rabbonim and rabbanut is not considered kashrus, so the mikvas as well are nt considered mikvas if they are being run by dati leumi rabbis and the rabbanutAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-79163698461643823882010-05-12T14:57:32.479+03:002010-05-12T14:57:32.479+03:00What "DL pashkevilim" are you referring ...What "DL pashkevilim" are you referring to?<br />They obviously aren't very successful if no one has seen them or knows what they are about.ynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-86553722386377553612010-05-12T13:31:26.827+03:002010-05-12T13:31:26.827+03:00Surprised by the DL pashkevilim, since the fight w...Surprised by the DL pashkevilim, since the fight was led by Shalom Lerner et al. During the mayoral campaign they refused any opportunity to use those kinds of ugly labels and language. Maybe they decided that's why they lost and have changed their tune.DFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-38948796576312815642010-05-12T12:51:13.209+03:002010-05-12T12:51:13.209+03:00Complaints about any Mikveh under the umbrella org...Complaints about any Mikveh under the umbrella organization the Moatza Datit of Bet Shemesh (including the Lachish Mikveh, since it was built and is funded by the Moatza Datit) may be filed with the Moatza Datit of Bet Shemesh.<br /><br />As a public service I bring to the community's attention the information I have found about to how to file a complaint if someone has been mistreated at a Mikveh. For the public good, in order to correct the situation, women who have endured mistreatment of any kind at the Mikveh are requested to file formal complaints (and this is true of any Mikveh anywhere in Israel).<br /><br />Here is what I learned about filing such a complaint in Bet Shemesh:<br />Complaints about mistreatment at the Mikveh (including any physical mistreatment or threats, as well as violation of a woman's right to use the Mikveh according to her own Minhag) may be filed with Rav David Spector of the local Rabbinate. His phone numbers are: 052-385-9105, and 999-4987; and he meets with people at his home on Reuven Street in Scheinfeld at certain hours by appointment. He also has an office at the Rabbinate building downtown on Abba Naamat Street, and appointments with him at his office at the Rabbinate building can be made through the Rabbinate phone numbers: 991-1361, 991-2867. Rav Spector's Email address is: spektor@neto.net.il (This information is also available in the Shemeshphone on page 25e of the blue pages in English).<br /><br />Anyone who knows women who experienced mistreatment at the Mikveh (even if they were only "threatened" that they will not be allowed in the Mikveh pool unless they perform an injurious process or behave in contradiction to the Psak that they have received), should please encourage them to file a formal complaint. It is understandable that women, who have gone through an experience as traumatic as some of these experiences have been, might not want to dredge up the unpleasant memories by going through the formal complaint process; but the many oral complaints received so far by the women dealing with this do not result in any action being taken to correct the situation, so it is for the public good that women are being requested to file formal complaints if they have endured mistreatment of any kind at the Mikveh (and this is true of any Mikveh anywhere in Israel). Only formal complaints can help correct the situation, and, the more women who formally file their sincere complaints about unjustifiable behavior toward them, the more chance there is of ensuring that nothing like this will be allowed to occur in the future.<br /><br />Catriel Lev<br />Ramat Bet Shemesh, Israel<br />Mobile Phone: 050-205-7867<br />Telephone: 02-991-4332<br />Email: clev@actcom.comCatriel Levhttp://clev@actcom.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-16595894541528403712010-05-12T11:18:55.854+03:002010-05-12T11:18:55.854+03:00All these arguments back and forth about the mikve...All these arguments back and forth about the mikveh madness are truly absurd.<br /><br />The esential problem amounts to certain Haredim's insatiable desire for absolute control and power. This has never been a problem with the non-dati-leumi rabbis.It's about Haredi Supremacistsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-54940587627240185102010-05-12T10:15:30.077+03:002010-05-12T10:15:30.077+03:00Apparently the mevaker hamedina has some problems ...Apparently the mevaker hamedina has some problems with rabbani shecunot that are on the payroll of moatza hadatit. You can see the report here:<br />http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/%D7%93%D7%95%D7%97-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%A7%D7%A8.html<br /><br />It's interesting that in Bet Shemesh there are 2 rabanei shechunot and both are in the same neighborhood!<br />Essentially they serve all of Bet Shemesh and the work is just divided between them and the city rav.anonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-1775321374269095552010-05-12T07:08:43.605+03:002010-05-12T07:08:43.605+03:00I think that the inappropriate Charedi balanit was...I think that the inappropriate Charedi balanit was very unfortunate, and it's a testimony to the way the charedi community operates (i.e. no mikvah issues belong in the hands of the women) that she was allowed to affend so many women before the situation was dealt with.<br /><br />Anonymous it's really stupid and unnecessary to tell Rachel she's lying - the Rabbanim never made an announcement that this didn't happen, and in fact Rav M. is still conducting meetings with women who come forward and say they were "over-checked."<br /><br />Everyone who hasn't been emotionally affected by a bad balanit knows that the procedures by any good mikvah lady are in a certain, appropriate, range.<br /><br />But I think that issue has nothing to do with the political one, who is in charge of a mikvah.<br /><br />I am embarrassed by the DL politicians' use of name-calling in this situation, just as I am embarrassed by the mayor's use of childish name-calling in his meeting with the DL Rabbanim.<br /><br />Frankly I don't care what's "legal" in terms of who supervises a mikvah - the Israeli Charedi Rabbanim of RBS wanted something they could authorize for their community, and any rejection of that request is inconsiderate and purely political.<br /><br />The argument that there are more "mesorati" women in RBS who will not feel comfortable within a Charedi framework is valid, but after what I've seen with the DL mudslinging I think it just worked out to be a convenient argument for them, not a sincere one.<br /><br />It's interesting that the Charedi supervision will now be in the larger mikvah which up until now had slightly fewer halachic hadarim. But otherwise the division is just right - geographically and giving the reliable and aesthetic mikvah to the population that has consistently demonstrated the most usage by more than double.Shiranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-56618543238454233242010-05-12T01:07:50.868+03:002010-05-12T01:07:50.868+03:00Rav Kupshitz was not present at the meeting, but h...Rav Kupshitz was not present at the meeting, but his assistant was.<br />The mayor does not make a move without Rav Kupshitz's approval.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-10174382093519625732010-05-12T00:41:34.117+03:002010-05-12T00:41:34.117+03:00Dovid - I heard that as well tonight. I havent con...Dovid - I heard that as well tonight. I havent confirmed it anywhere but the person who told me seemed to know what he was talking aboutRafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-64800965701275130422010-05-11T23:23:16.442+03:002010-05-11T23:23:16.442+03:00"One {Chareidi rav) was caught lying to the p..."One {Chareidi rav) was caught lying to the public on this blog."<br /><br />I'm clueless what this means...<br />Could you explain who's been lying on Rafi's blog?? <br /><br />Rafi?No Liars Herenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-24973089460876721462010-05-11T23:01:20.788+03:002010-05-11T23:01:20.788+03:00HaRav Chayim, HaRav Chayim Solo, HaRav Chayim Solo...HaRav Chayim, HaRav Chayim Solo, HaRav Chayim Soloveichik.<br /><br />Job well done!Normalcy For RBSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-36033757801264567212010-05-11T22:54:26.364+03:002010-05-11T22:54:26.364+03:00I just heard a very important point. supposedly, a...I just heard a very important point. supposedly, at the agreement and signing, Rav Kopshitz was present giving his approval. Everybody should know that it is he who controls this city because Abutbol doesn't move without first getting approval from Rav Kopshitz. This Rav of the Eida Chareidis is the guy telling Abutbol how we can live our lives.Dovid Yaakovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-60333984475486265742010-05-11T22:41:10.007+03:002010-05-11T22:41:10.007+03:00Where is the precedent or legal 'heter' th...Where is the precedent or legal 'heter' that allows the iriyah to hand over moatsah institutions to any private rav (friend of the mayor) who feels like taking over??<br />What is going on in Iriyat Bet Shemesh?<br />This is certainly not the end of the story...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-27161305871516866472010-05-11T22:40:27.815+03:002010-05-11T22:40:27.815+03:00Rafi, please delete any posts dealing with people ...Rafi, please delete any posts dealing with people discussing personal stories or personal attacks. They are not helpful. Clearly, some women were unhappy with their mikva experiences, and due to the nature of the situation, they can't always discuss the stories. I mean, a man hopefully won't come into shul and tell his friends, "So last night, my wife was sitting there naked when this lady comes at her scab with an nail file and made her bleed..." Let's assume there were some stories, and hopefully now that rabbis and others are aware, we will not hear such stories again. <br /><br />I am glad to hear Rav Ovadia Yosef heard about the sign in the mikva which told Sefradi women NOT to tovel when they were supposed to (and in contrast to the new high school issue which can EASILY be misrepresented to a gadol - what they will teach, what the hashkafa will be, who the students are - it is pretty hard to take the sign we ALL SAW WITH OUR EYES hanging in the mikva two ways. I mean, what else could it mean when a sign says it is ASSUR for "kol haEidot" to "tovel bein hashmashot?")<br /><br />I hope everyone realizes that it is important for a community to have one mikva that women feel they can all go to. And I hope no woman was "turned off" to this mitzva because of being made to feel bad at a mikva. My hope is that this community will realize that a mikva with one less chumra in the pool but more achdus is what most normal women (and men!) care about.I Call for Achdus and Sanity for RBSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-90544436173848614782010-05-11T21:25:33.132+03:002010-05-11T21:25:33.132+03:00The mikva issue is far from over. Round 1 was won ...The mikva issue is far from over. Round 1 was won by the DL but be prepared for round 2. I hear the mayor forced the moetza datit to agree to signing over Lachish to R Davidovitz, but the DL Rabbonim were not consulted, neither were their representatives, and they are not bound by this decision.<br />Why should women who go to the Lachish mikva have to suffer at the hands of the machmir balaniyot? It is definitely an accomplishment that the mayor could not get away with giving the Charedi rabbonim both mikvas, as he wished, but they should not be getting one either. The mikvaot belong to the moetza datit and should be run by Rav Spector. Anyone who is not happy with that, can build their own. Especially anyone who feels that a DL balanit is not good enough for them (which is what R Davidovitz reportedly told one of the DL Rabbonim just a few days ago)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-11741974079104313282010-05-11T19:48:36.492+03:002010-05-11T19:48:36.492+03:00Rafi.
I didn't mean anything like you underst...Rafi. <br />I didn't mean anything like you understood. I was just trying to make a point that the same people (or perhaps not the exact same people, but the outlook) who refused to believe that rav eliyashiv wrote the letter (from the yeshiva tichonit post) because of all those reasons, all of a sudden believe hands down that rav ovadyah shlit"a (also no youngster) says what is contributed to him. <br />I wasn't claiming anything in particular about this specific case as I don't know much either. Just making a point. <br />Also I apologize for allowing things to sidetrack to personal attacks. Keep up the good workMr. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-12993915556471501152010-05-11T19:48:25.426+03:002010-05-11T19:48:25.426+03:00rafi, what they do/what they NEED to do is compari...rafi, what they do/what they NEED to do is comparing apples to oranges. There are lots of people who go over and above their job requirements, and so long as they are being helpful/not hurting someone else, that is all fine and dandy. In practice, whether it is what they should be doing or not, some were doing more and it was hurting people (so long as you do not believe the complaining victims are making it all up).<br /><br />If they were just doing their jobs many the complaints would not have arisen in the first place.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10006477385560302312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-38895060208394150272010-05-11T19:39:20.959+03:002010-05-11T19:39:20.959+03:00I am referring to what the responsibility of the m...I am referring to what the responsibility of the mikva lady is. to check that the hair goes under the water and to help if the woman wants help with something. and to know when a shailoh needs to be asked.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-16338208065041726822010-05-11T19:33:44.564+03:002010-05-11T19:33:44.564+03:00rafi- from where are you getting that they do noth...rafi- from where are you getting that they do nothing but what women ask for? That was the impetus of this whole thing- in some cases they were doing far more! If you mean that from now they should not, than we are in total agreement.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10006477385560302312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-23655020800283705852010-05-11T19:29:59.986+03:002010-05-11T19:29:59.986+03:00enough with the attacks.
I would like to know wha...enough with the attacks.<br /><br />I would like to know what Mr. Anonymous means about Rav Ovadya not having heard both sides, when I heard that he davka did.<br /><br />Besides that, I still dont see why this whole thing should be an issue. Let the haredi rabboinim inspect the physical Dolev mikva as often as they need. That bothers nobody. And the balanit dont do anything anyway besides assistance that the woman might ask for, so that doesnt matter. A haredi woman who wants to be more machmir with her chatzitza issues can easily be more machmir and ask for more assistance.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-65107777993877586322010-05-11T19:01:20.861+03:002010-05-11T19:01:20.861+03:00Anonymous "I am not sure why I am a fool.&quo...Anonymous "I am not sure why I am a fool."<br /><br />You are a fool because you are routinely patronizing to intelligent people.<br /><br />You are a fool because you are personally abusive to those who raise challenging questions and issues.<br /><br />You are a fool because you lash out with slurs like "liar" and "chareidi basher" - and this is a cover-up for when you yourself lie and are bigotted.<br /><br />You are a fool because you shoot out your opinions without a second's thought - and spend a lifetime covering up your stupid errors, rather than honestly admit to poor judgements or genuine mistakes.<br /><br />Anonymous - there are many reasons you are a fool.Who's a Fool?noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-63405484644843123672010-05-11T18:52:58.949+03:002010-05-11T18:52:58.949+03:00Mr. Anonymous, what do you mean he didnt hear both...Mr. Anonymous, what do you mean he didnt hear both sides of the story? I heard that one night Rav Davidovitz went (with Abutbol I think) and presented their case to Rav Ovadya. The next day the DL rabbonim went to Rav Ovadia.<br /><br />If that is true,m, he heard both sides of the story.<br /><br />Please clarify what you meant.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.com