tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post5813884147420626784..comments2024-03-29T06:05:20.562+03:00Comments on Life in Israel: The increasing violence in the Haredi communityRafi G.http://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-28155692996619564432013-10-28T17:07:50.232+02:002013-10-28T17:07:50.232+02:00See beginning of Bechukotai, Rashi there. You have...See beginning of Bechukotai, Rashi there. You have corrupted the Torah - a megaleh panim batorah shelo k'halacha. You would like those nuts to be the "authentic" torah, as that justifies your atheism. Sorry, I'm not buying it.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-49879742715119479632013-10-28T15:01:43.142+02:002013-10-28T15:01:43.142+02:00Maybe "the way" should spend a shabbos i...Maybe "the way" should spend a shabbos in RBS with his extended family to rediscover his roots....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-35444498285057182332013-10-28T12:57:48.096+02:002013-10-28T12:57:48.096+02:00Sometimes, not always. What also happens, sometime...Sometimes, not always. What also happens, sometimes, is that the kids see through the conflict between their parents' values and the values they are taught in school, and choose the parents' values - with or without the reliigious element. I think there are cases in which the parents are brought closer to their own core values when the choices their children make force them to confront this conflict.<br /><br />On the other hand, I think many parents do successfully pass along their combination of respect for others and religious fervor to their children. For that matter, I think there are many native-born Israeli charedim that also believe in these values, but unfortunately, they seem to have less and less of a voice. I believe this is the group that the Tov party seeks to represent, and unfortunately, Tov ended up with no seats. By the way, I think politics amplifies the worst elements of haredi hashkafa, by seizing upon hashkafic differences as a means to gaining power. Another unfortunate byproduct of having our own state - perhaps Herzl should have anticipated that once the Jews had self-rule, our old habits of internecine warfare and intolerance would return! I think politics also serves as something of an outlet for many haredim - they're told not to watch or play sports, but politics has a heksher, so they can act in politics like football fans act after a dozen or so beers at a game (or match, if you prefer), and fool themselves into thinking they're doing a mitzvah instead of the opposite.Baruch Gitlinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-66404563346273673302013-10-28T12:21:46.361+02:002013-10-28T12:21:46.361+02:00You should ask the christian evangelist group if t...You should ask the christian evangelist group if they are aware they are using the name of a Jewish atheist. The Wayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02450690035446068510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-44980884885556827642013-10-28T12:07:53.500+02:002013-10-28T12:07:53.500+02:00Are you aware that "The Way" is the name...Are you aware that "The Way" is the name of a Christian evangalist group ?not the new testamentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-12323641443040687732013-10-28T11:58:05.233+02:002013-10-28T11:58:05.233+02:00Baruch,
thank you.
and yes, the exile accounts f...Baruch,<br /><br />thank you.<br /><br />and yes, the exile accounts for the difference between 'anglo' and 'native' charediim that rafi and others had pointed out. However, the children of these anglo charediim and grandchildren grow up without having any of the values of diversity. These children grow up in relatively closed communities, a rejection, to varying degrees not only of interacting with people who are different but even from education. Instead, these children are raised on high octane religion without the (unrecognized) reform values of their parents. The Wayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02450690035446068510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-58309210157752074472013-10-28T11:47:56.592+02:002013-10-28T11:47:56.592+02:00exactly yehuda. god grants peace.
peace is the re...exactly yehuda. god grants peace.<br /><br />peace is the reward for serving god. that is his brit, his covenant.<br /><br />what do you do to those who don't serve god? who violate his commandments?<br /><br />as the ultra orthodox often say, don't confuse your understanding, and modern values, with what god says is right. and god says that peace will be the reward for those who follow him. Peace for evildoers, for sinners, is not part of the tanach or gemara. Peace and harmony comes from getting rid of sinners... which is why while you may not recognize it as violence, forcing your laws on secular jews is a daily act of violence, because it is directly based on these principles. You just dont like it when those principles are turned on you.The Wayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02450690035446068510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-84254630066347857322013-10-28T11:29:40.791+02:002013-10-28T11:29:40.791+02:00for a start..............
יִשָּׂא ה פָּנָיו אֵלֶ...for a start..............<br /><br /><br />יִשָּׂא ה פָּנָיו אֵלֶיךָ, וְיָשֵׂם לְךָ שָׁלוֹם.<br /><br />לָכֵן, אֱמֹר: הִנְנִי נֹתֵן לוֹ אֶת-בְּרִיתִי, שָׁלוֹם<br /><br />וְנָתַתִּי שָׁלוֹם בָּאָרֶץ, וּשְׁכַבְתֶּם וְאֵין מַחֲרִיד<br /><br />ה עֹז, לְעַמּוֹ יִתֵּן ה' יְבָרֵךְ אֶת-עַמּוֹ בַשָּׁלוֹם.<br /><br />סוּר מֵרָע, וַעֲשֵׂה-טוֹב; בַּקֵּשׁ שָׁלוֹם וְרָדְפֵהוּ.<br /><br />שַׁאֲלוּ, שְׁלוֹם יְרוּשָׁלִָם; יִשְׁלָיוּ, אֹהֲבָיִךְ<br /><br />יְהִי-שָׁלוֹם בְּחֵילֵךְ; שַׁלְוָה, בְּאַרְמְנוֹתָיִךְ.<br /><br />וּרְאֵה-בָנִים לְבָנֶיךָ: שָׁלוֹם, עַל-יִשְׂרָאֵל<br />yehudahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-8935323853851414522013-10-28T11:29:21.105+02:002013-10-28T11:29:21.105+02:00I've got to admit, Way, you have an interestin...I've got to admit, Way, you have an interesting point. At least, it requires some serious thinking.<br /><br />I won't pretend to be a scholar, but my impression is that over the course of our exile, we have emphasized the idea of peaceful relations with our neighbors and particularly with our host governments as a coping mechanism necessary to a minority community. I think this finds explicit expression in the halachas of dina-di-malchuta-dina.<br /><br />I believe that living in a Jewish state has shaken up our attitudes in this respect, and I think this change in attitude is very much related to the subject of this post. Ironically, it seems to me that the most vehemently anti-Zionist elements are those that tend to go the farthest in throwing off the "golus" attitude of going out of our way to behave as a peaceful and subsurvient minority.Baruch Gitlinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-40377214555297538572013-10-28T10:58:53.504+02:002013-10-28T10:58:53.504+02:00Rafi and Miriam,
Where in the torah does it ment...Rafi and Miriam, <br /><br />Where in the torah does it mention peace as a goal? Peace may come as a byproduct of serving god and being united in serving god... as seen through the numerous stories of the prophets and kings and judges. And how are the people of Israel united under god? by punishing evildoers, many of which call for death. God is the goal, not peace. Peace as a goal comes from people wanting to reform the philosophy of the religion: hence the term, reform. This philosophy is clear in the Tanach and has always been the philosophy of strict religious jews: the concept of right and wrong, and violence as an acceptable punishment with a clear acceptance of different classes of people. So violence is clearly not limited to wars. Teaching your children this philosophy is a daily act. And the violence which permeates ultra religious Judaism stems directly from the philosophy that daily acts are worthy of death. Are you sure you guys have read the texts and understood them? Last time I checked, charediim believed Jewishness comes from tanach and gemara. Belief in prayer and peace, and what you pray for as a symbol of your jewish identity, is a reform idea not an ultra orthodox belief.The Wayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02450690035446068510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-92019067038911193812013-10-28T10:41:24.586+02:002013-10-28T10:41:24.586+02:00What an utterly ridiculous argument. Not printing ...What an utterly ridiculous argument. Not printing pictures of women leads to violence? Rafi's post was well-thought out and coherent. You are just looking to bash chareidim for whatever reason you can dig up.SB, Beit Shemeshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-82542387536763908252013-10-28T09:37:03.396+02:002013-10-28T09:37:03.396+02:00in the chareidi talmud torah history lessons they ...in the chareidi talmud torah history lessons they teach them about the terrible time 60-70 years ago when these guys named hitler, himmler and eichman who after years of fully supporting all the yeshivas and kollels in Germany and Poland for may years suddenly decided to drastically cut their budget....<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-81774824363077928252013-10-28T09:34:48.348+02:002013-10-28T09:34:48.348+02:00This is why I truly believe when you involve child...This is why I truly believe when you involve children in politics you are robbing them of their childhood <br /><br />When asked about the posters etc, one should answer this is for adults, it's not for you to worry about, one day you will need to but for now have fun and enjoy the time you have now<br /><br />As children see things as black and white, good vs evil and one can't explain the dynamics of politics to a child so you either labeled as good or bad and unfortunately these labels stay with them into adulthood creating the situation we have today Miriamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15919126961930611962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-49804689835429726692013-10-28T09:04:08.884+02:002013-10-28T09:04:08.884+02:00there is time for war, and times where violence is...there is time for war, and times where violence is necessary and demanded, but in general one of our greatest desires is for peace, and that reflects in our prayers and in our daily actions. There is no daily activity of violence demanded of us. Those are unusual situations.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-43854555338151599662013-10-28T08:58:55.129+02:002013-10-28T08:58:55.129+02:00"Judaism is not a religion of peace" I ..."Judaism is not a religion of peace" I would question you on that one....Miriamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-21146546559356966922013-10-28T08:44:37.505+02:002013-10-28T08:44:37.505+02:00I definitely see how bad this has all become - las...I definitely see how bad this has all become - last week I was at a park in bet (we live near there and I have to wait for my daughter's hasa'ah on Hayarden) and a FOUR YEAR OLD little boy called my three year old a Nazi. I still don't know how to process it, but i do know that it was just a little tiny symptom of a much bigger issue. And it really, really scared me. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-2539580597039230262013-10-28T07:23:39.014+02:002013-10-28T07:23:39.014+02:00Rafi, no disrespect intended, but are you sure you...Rafi, no disrespect intended, but are you sure you're not confusing Judaism with another religion? People who are charedi / ultra orthodox, do so because they claim it is a more authentic version of judaism. Judaism is not a religion of peace. The torah is full of punishments of death and genocide. <br />The 'anglo' charediim, are those who bring 'western' values to israel/judaism as opposed to the 'yerushalmi' jews without western values. and surprise! violence. <br />So again, where do you get the idea that Judaism is about peace? Think about the concept that Rabbis can beat and torture a person that doesn't give a get... or that ultra orthodox jews (in general as a group) separate themselves from the rest of society and yet, unlike the peaceful quakers, insist that their laws be forced upon other segments of society. <br />So I think the real problem here is you view Judaism like a reform american jew while living an ultra orthodox lifestyle in an ultra orthodox community.The Wayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02450690035446068510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-88677715060679882292013-10-28T05:52:30.772+02:002013-10-28T05:52:30.772+02:00"no values are left, no integrity is left&quo..."no values are left, no integrity is left". You lost me there. Ridiculous statement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-23485413054848157062013-10-28T04:44:41.641+02:002013-10-28T04:44:41.641+02:00To go back to your Yerushalmi acquaintance: the go...To go back to your Yerushalmi acquaintance: the government/Israeli society has often tacitly given in to Arab violence (or the threat of it), and the Haredim have internalized that message. And not surprisingly, the rest of Israeli society is beginning to avoid the Haredim just as they acid the Arabs.shmildanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-15367804600862574322013-10-27T21:09:44.056+02:002013-10-27T21:09:44.056+02:00Couldn't agree with Rafi any more. It used to ...Couldn't agree with Rafi any more. It used to be I could tell my kids that it's the few crazies in Bet. Now I have to actively explain and attempt to shelter them (very difficult) from all the garbage. My 12 year old son came to me on his own and said he hoped whoever gets elected stays as mayor forever so there never has to be elections again because of all the hatred and lasho hara. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-88518247075891865012013-10-27T19:56:24.023+02:002013-10-27T19:56:24.023+02:00it used to be that we could get away with saying i...it used to be that we could get away with saying it is just a small community of maybe 30, 40 or 50 crazies, and we are not part of them. now it has moved into our type of haredim as well. when haredim coming out of masas mordechai bankg on cars passing by and yell Nazi, when regular litvishe and sfardi kids and parents scream nazi at dl and secular, when the regular haredi kids mob together and throw thigns at people calling them Nazi and mechalel shabbos among other things, when kids push around and hit other kids because of the candidate their father prefers (I know some cases), we can no longer say it is just a few crazies. it has moved from the crazies to the mainstream.<br /><br />but that is just how I see it. you are welcome to disagree.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-73430669150109711882013-10-27T19:51:35.231+02:002013-10-27T19:51:35.231+02:00Rafi - excellent piece. Couldn't have put it b...Rafi - excellent piece. Couldn't have put it better myself. It's time that more and more of us spoke up. <br />Joe - when 30-40 kids (8-12 year olds) chase after the car of a mayoral candidate and nearly lynch him, then it is no longer isolated. When similar numbers of (different) kids of similar ages attack a campaign duchan manned by two teenagers, ripping up material and leaving one of them in a state of shock, I would say that it is no longer isolated. What's worse is that it now affects the Anglo parts of the charedi world.Yoni Palmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04258565971992568514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-69439872966667940742013-10-27T18:58:09.982+02:002013-10-27T18:58:09.982+02:00Rafi: I don't see any evidence the violence is...Rafi: I don't see any evidence the violence isn't contained to a small number of hotheads as it has always been. Your and others speculation that it now has widespread support in the Chareidi community is offered as mere opinion without evidence that it is any different now than 15 or 20 or 30 years ago.Joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-15239827463522448132013-10-27T18:33:24.316+02:002013-10-27T18:33:24.316+02:00Which leaves many of us asking one question: is th...Which leaves many of us asking one question: is the Charedi camp simply a continuum of extremism, or is there hope for the Charedi camp to stand up against extremism because there is some kind of line that can be drawn - to clearly indicate where the Torah ends and the extremism begins?Miriamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-52868959230206818892013-10-27T16:35:33.208+02:002013-10-27T16:35:33.208+02:00I think this phenomenon began long before the inci...I think this phenomenon began long before the incident at Ponovezh. For years, "tznius patrols" have used occasional violence and vandalism (not really much difference) and the threat thereof to run "undesirables" out of their neighborhoods or cities, and violence and intimidation have occasionally reared their head in the name of "mehadrin" public transportation since the early days of segregated buses. Other types of intimidation have also been used to accomplish what seemed liked "frum" ends. I recall the municipal election in Beitar Illit 10 years ago, when a very well respected Rav was put under enormous pressure, including economic pressure, to publicly endorse the Degel candidate, something he was very reluctant to do. And so much for "daas Torah."<br /><br />I think there has been an attitude of winking at this kind of thing in order to accomplish goals such as "purifying" neighborhoods of "undesirable" elements. Bringing it out in the open and condemning it for what it is is an important step towards dealing with the problem, and I think you deserve a lot of credit for doing so in this post.Baruch Gitlinnoreply@blogger.com