tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post6034728787138378639..comments2024-03-29T06:05:20.562+03:00Comments on Life in Israel: Rabbi Sued After Baby Injured During CircumcisionRafi G.http://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-42665909613703492992014-01-02T09:49:35.430+02:002014-01-02T09:49:35.430+02:00I can't imagine anyone doing a circumcision fo...I can't imagine anyone doing a circumcision for cosmetic reasons. The religious do it as a Divine commandment, and many non-religious for health concerns. In either case, the child's consent isn't required as this is within the prerogative of a parent's decision making role.Herbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-87156835737611553402014-01-02T05:40:03.120+02:002014-01-02T05:40:03.120+02:00Every circumcision alters sex dramatically. Only ...Every circumcision alters sex dramatically. Only the patient has the ethical standing to authorize cosmetic surgery. TLC Tuggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01506668583279662248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-312045627987553342014-01-01T10:33:06.989+02:002014-01-01T10:33:06.989+02:00Parents make countless, irrevocable decisions whic...Parents make countless, irrevocable decisions which permanently affect their children's bodies, minds, and future for the rest of their lives. This is just one more and well within a parents prerogative.Herbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-13568896580458146962013-12-31T23:12:46.852+02:002013-12-31T23:12:46.852+02:00How many complications are too many? This was a ri...How many complications are too many? This was a ritual circumcision performed by a mohel who says he is trained. The operation to restore the baby's penis to a semblance of normality may or may not succeed, and the full extent of its success or failure won't be known till he his an adult.<br /><br />Where is the justice or mercy in subjecting a newborn baby to such a devastating risk for the sake of beliefs that he may grow up to reject? Religious freedom is a relatively modern concept and individual religious freedom even more so. Clearly many people do not have their heads around it yet. The child is not the parents' property, nor the slave of them or their beliefs. He (or she) is entitled to an open future, including the fate of all his (or her) own (normal, healthy, functional, non-renewing) body parts.Hughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01626096729466629067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-19724430272428849452013-12-31T22:54:39.083+02:002013-12-31T22:54:39.083+02:00I agree that "Nature knows best" is not ...I agree that "Nature knows best" is not a good argument, so I ignored that part of Anonymous's post. But the benefits of grinding wheat into flour are manifest. Those of cutting a normal, healthy, functional, non-renewing part off the body of a non-consenting person, not so much. Hughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01626096729466629067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-84106698289196727172013-12-31T22:48:49.431+02:002013-12-31T22:48:49.431+02:00I think Anonymous meant, "stop doing infant c...I think Anonymous meant, "stop doing infant circumcisions, except medically necessary ones". Adults of course should be free to have themselves circumcised for whatever reasons they please, such as religion.<br />Actually, Rafi, I think you are mistaken about "purely religious". Any online discussion of religious circumcision very soon raises all the old refuted medical excuses as well, along with more ritualistic than realistic notions of "uncleanness". Underlying - and sometimes explicit - reasons are conformity, power and control.<br /><br />Hughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01626096729466629067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-73974494034844885692013-12-31T22:48:46.163+02:002013-12-31T22:48:46.163+02:00Hugh, my point (which was just echoing the famous ...Hugh, my point (which was just echoing the famous discussion between Rabbi Akiva and the Turnus Rufus quoted in Midrash Tanchuma (Tazria 5)) was rebutting the assertion by Anonymous to leave the human body as designed. The fact that people without mila feel fine is irrelevant. As Rabbi Akiva claimed, it isn't possible to say that the world was created in a perfect state as can be seen from the example of wheat. R' Akiva never claimed that *everything* created needs man to perfect it, just that it is impossible to use the state of something created as proof of that being the better state.Herbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-41881844361958957162013-12-31T22:35:14.406+02:002013-12-31T22:35:14.406+02:00Herb, have you tasted bread made with unground whe...Herb, have you tasted bread made with unground wheat? Pretty much inedible, I'd guess. Yet 2,000,000,000 men and their partners find their "unground" parts to be perfectly "delicious" and "nutritious".Hughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01626096729466629067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-76277254733857052882013-12-30T20:18:18.331+02:002013-12-30T20:18:18.331+02:00Circumcision has historically been done well, and ...Circumcision has historically been done well, and successfully, for many centuries with a very low attendant rate of complications.<br /><br />Now, to the article: I don't even know how to begin processing this. It is almost difficult to mistakenly sever the entire (or most of the) penis. The more common risk is placing the shield too low, and then cutting off too much at the top. Still doesn't happen very often. (No statistics at hand, but I have looked into this since we live in a very anti-cicumcision town. And yes, I am a medical professional and educated at reading and interpreting research papers and policy statements from medical bodies.) This mohel, it seems, would have to 1) have been working without a shield. In my personal opinion, that would be unnecessarily risky and irresponsible. I also think it unlikely. In my 56 years I have only known of one mohel who ever worked without a shield. Even the best of the best use a simple slide-on shield. Or, 2) he placed the shield and then allowed himself to be distracted and cut below the shield, rather than being solely focussed on the task of the moment. I suppose, too, for instance that if the sandek had bumped his knees up at just wrong moment, with knife already in motion, that might cause such an accident. Dunno. Just hard to envision.<br /><br />The AAP says that 1 in 500 circumcisions have a significant complication. Let's be clear. Assuming that is a clear piece of data (a reasonable assumption), it obviously is mostly non-Jewish circumcisions. There just aren't enough Jewish circumcisions in America as a percentage of the whole, to account for that datum. So, that would imply that many physicians are also having complications. Medical circumcisions in American are typically done by a method that is really unwieldy and unnecessarily complex. It is best done with three hands. I have witnessed some, and discussed it with several physicians who do them. The observant Jewish physicians I've discussed it with all remarked how it is unnecessarily complex when done by standard urological technique. In my head, that increases likelihood of error and accounts for the AAP datum; which again must reflect circumcisions that were mostly not 'Jewish ritual circumcision'. It's a little confusing including that datum in the article.<br /><br />I'm in favor of regulation that does not interfere with religious standards. Of course, the Jewish community would have to be honest and humble about what is really, absolutely "required" and what can be adapted. No further comment on that. ;-( <br /><br />I also think the gentleman who did this milah should cease immediately. This is a great, grievous, gross error. It requires some time to learn from mistakes, to do t'shuvah, before considering doing more circumcisions. This kind of tragedy is really a yifashfesh b'maasav moment for all who even witness such a thing. What happened to our sensibilities? A sefer torah falls to ground and the whole shul fasts (typically, historically); but a baby is accidentally mutilated and the mohel and/or community should respond with less? Oy lanu.Mordechai Y. Scherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06774262478551329181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-62439791303072945712013-12-30T19:53:17.435+02:002013-12-30T19:53:17.435+02:00Same for Muslims, Rafi. Maybe certain Christian s...Same for Muslims, Rafi. Maybe certain Christian sects, as well.Mordechai Y. Scherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06774262478551329181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-68471022407180800842013-12-30T18:40:14.689+02:002013-12-30T18:40:14.689+02:00I dont know about people who do circumcisions for ...I dont know about people who do circumcisions for medical reasons, but most Jews who do circumcision, and especially religious Jews, do not do it for medical reasons. the reasons are purely religious.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-30200009754758967582013-12-30T17:55:54.778+02:002013-12-30T17:55:54.778+02:00And let's not grind wheat into flour since tha...And let's not grind wheat into flour since that's the way it naturally grows... Herbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-10808134612029809372013-12-30T17:19:37.143+02:002013-12-30T17:19:37.143+02:00The solution to preventing botched circumcisions i...The solution to preventing botched circumcisions is to stop performing medically unnecessary circumcisions. This case is just one in a long and growing list of tragedies resulting from circumcisions that are unnecessary in the first place. Respect the bodily integrity of children, and God's design of the human body. <br /><br />See: http://wisewomanwayofbirth.com/circumcision-dirty-little-secrets-exposed/<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-15122233937109524372013-12-30T13:02:56.460+02:002013-12-30T13:02:56.460+02:00Let's face it. Regulation here means medical (...Let's face it. Regulation here means medical (or at least nursing) school. Frankly, it's a miracle (most) Western societies haven't already prevented people with no qualifications from performing what is a surgical procedure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com