tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post6621116157563468736..comments2024-03-29T11:40:46.477+03:00Comments on Life in Israel: Adventures in Eretz Yisrael: Central Shomron: Kever YosefRafi G.http://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-28229525696389737572007-05-15T23:56:00.000+03:002007-05-15T23:56:00.000+03:00ben yehudah- Jameel would have had a harder time g...ben yehudah- Jameel would have had a harder time getting there, and he had been running around for a while already, with other passengers. Cut him some slack :)<BR/><BR/>I hope I would've been allowed in, too, as I was tagging along with Rafi.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-61764896246074632922007-05-15T23:28:00.000+03:002007-05-15T23:28:00.000+03:00sorry ben-yehuda. email me your cell phone number ...sorry ben-yehuda. email me your cell phone number and next time I will... even at 2 am? Your number would have come in handy, considering how nervous I was about the gas situation..Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-15170504761492488862007-05-15T20:50:00.000+03:002007-05-15T20:50:00.000+03:00B"H What?! You were in the neighbor in the middle...B"H What?! You were in the neighbor in the middle of the night, and you and Jameel didn't even have the courtesy to stop by? How rude! ;-)Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-76020586863741988172007-05-15T09:03:00.000+03:002007-05-15T09:03:00.000+03:00it may not be such a good idea, but that is what w...it may not be such a good idea, but that is what would have happened.....Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-63508778886798900032007-05-15T07:03:00.000+03:002007-05-15T07:03:00.000+03:00i don't know. maybe i'm just being a wimp, but i d...i don't know. maybe i'm just being a wimp, but i don't think it is such a good idea to "ignore instructions . . . of safety and wander through the dangerous roads and forests"<BR/><BR/>i've posted my own pics fro kever yosef at http://agmk.blogspot.com/2007/05/my-pictures-from-kever-yosef.htmlLion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-55789810431992126932007-05-15T06:26:00.000+03:002007-05-15T06:26:00.000+03:00ari - yes, crazy referred to both. I was saying wh...ari - yes, crazy referred to both. I was saying what the police might be thinking. In their eyes, these people (me included) are probably crazy to want to go into shchem in the middle of the night to cry over a bunch of rocks...<BR/><BR/>and thanks for the offer, but this time I will not be needing it... lolRafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-87327530148393605462007-05-15T05:16:00.000+03:002007-05-15T05:16:00.000+03:00i forgot to ask: will you be needing a friendly co...i forgot to ask: will you be needing a friendly couch again for the next few nights?Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-16633872281920776522007-05-15T04:51:00.000+03:002007-05-15T04:51:00.000+03:00"A bunch of crazy breslavers and settlers"does cra..."A bunch of crazy breslavers and settlers"<BR/><BR/>does crazy apply to both, or just the first?Lion of Zionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10342299133387602141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-85390576992260408702007-05-14T19:11:00.000+03:002007-05-14T19:11:00.000+03:00oh, I don't think it was an "us against them" issu...oh, I don't think it was an "us against them" issue. It was pretty tense for them I am sure. They probably did not want to be there, but were forced to because of the political pressure, it was middle of the night and a dangerous place. A bunch of crazy breslavers and settlers most of whom would probably ignore instructions (at least in their minds) of safety and wander through the dangerous roads and forests if left on their own, etc.. <BR/>I was just saying what happened, that it got violent. Notice though that I said it from both sides, the violent mobs, and the violent police, though the mobs were not violent in the sense that they were beating people up - meaning it was not a riot or a lynching, but violent in the sense that they were pushing forward and people couild have gotten hurt unintentionally. The police were violent trying to thwart that.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-69188490606213373452007-05-14T17:20:00.000+03:002007-05-14T17:20:00.000+03:00However the police have shown time and time again ...<I>However the police have shown time and time again their level of violence and brutality, whenever there is a protest, especially right wing. We all thought it was limited to "settlers" and their supporters, but in the recent student protests, and then left wing protests by Hebron (on a much smaller scale albeit) they have shown that they very quickly resort to violence.</I><BR/><BR/>Agreed. OTOH, we've tended to overlook what may, in retrospect, occasionally have been heavy handed treatment of our dear cousins, and perhaps we're paying for it now...<BR/><BR/><I>I am willing to bet that they are not trained to have more patience under pressure, but to crack heads.</I><BR/><BR/>Probably.<BR/><BR/><I>They sent him to the wrong place on purpose.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, to be fair, I've done that to him a few times too ;)<BR/><BR/>Don't get me wrong; I'm not excusing the abominable behavior on the part of those who, in the old country, would have had the creed "to protect and to serve." I'm just pointing out that this might not be a pure case of a white hat / black hat showdown at dusk.Mikeagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15827275300296295639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-52236508597124509252007-05-14T17:00:00.000+03:002007-05-14T17:00:00.000+03:00Rafi, What a shame you didn't get to go, but quit...Rafi, What a shame you didn't get to go, but quite the adventure nonetheless!We're the ones who have to put up with themhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01053331977465408238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-88516643048420346952007-05-14T16:57:00.000+03:002007-05-14T16:57:00.000+03:00that very well could be Mike. They lose their pati...that very well could be Mike. They lose their patience like anybody else, and I understand that.<BR/>However the police have shown time and time again their level of violence and brutality, whenever there is a protest, especially right wing. We all thought it was limited to "settlers" and their supporters, but in the recent student protests, and then left wing protests by Hebron (on a much smaller scale albeit) they have shown that they very quickly resort to violence.<BR/>I am willing to bet that they are not trained to have more patience under pressure, but to crack heads.<BR/><BR/>Also, if you saw Jameels post (I do not remember how much of the details he put in, but he told me more than what was in his post), the police sent him on a wild goose chase for no reason. They sent him to the wrong place on purpose. Again, maybe they had a mtoive, like there were possibly already too many people and that was there way of getting more people to stop coming... who knows? but they deserve it less than others... though they are human and make mistakes as well...Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-36422882109801952272007-05-14T16:43:00.000+03:002007-05-14T16:43:00.000+03:00Jameel -- cute drash, not p'shat.Rafi -- I didn't ...Jameel -- cute drash, not p'shat.<BR/><BR/>Rafi -- I didn't mean to imply that everyone was acting like an animal, or that frustration is not understandable after a long wait. <BR/><BR/>Even a few would leave a horrible taste in my mouth; for sure a large enough crowd to merit the title mob. Whenever I see people pushing their way on to the 417, knocking aside women and little children with reckless abandon, I feel the same way...<BR/><BR/>To bring some politics into it, why are the police different? Granted, they're _more_ violent... but is that a qualitative difference or quantitative? I assume the choking police officer probably started out just lightly hitting and shoving. They may be trained to be cool under pressure (ideally...), but aren't we also trained in proper middos?<BR/><BR/>I'm going to go out on a limb here, and be somewhat offensive, and say that the same yetzer haros are found on both sides... and any limmud zechus should either be given to both sides, or neither (unless one group is clearly either r'shaim or tzaddim, and thus get special bonuses/reductions to their chiyuv of judgement l'kaf zechus.)Mikeagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15827275300296295639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-2018086931642587152007-05-14T16:39:00.000+03:002007-05-14T16:39:00.000+03:00I decided it wasn't worth risking my life to get t...I decided it wasn't worth risking my life to get there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-31875317873572540372007-05-14T15:46:00.000+03:002007-05-14T15:46:00.000+03:00good answer, Jameel.I would also add that our excu...good answer, Jameel.<BR/><BR/>I would also add that our excuse is we are human. A lot of people wanted to get there, after spending many hours of frustration standing around waiting with uncertainty. It is a rare event, as it is, and to be so close but so far can make a person crazy... <BR/><BR/>I will add, that there were violent mobs of people fighting to get on, but there were also people who kept there humanity and did not fight to get on like "chayois hakoidesh". Maybe they felt it was hypocritical to fight like that when going to daven, or maybe they were just afraid of getting killed in the mob, but there were plenty of people who did not join the mob.Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-32527427927538248202007-05-14T15:23:00.000+03:002007-05-14T15:23:00.000+03:00Famous story: mobs of hassidim trying to get to ea...Famous story: mobs of hassidim trying to get to eat the Rebbe's leftovers.<BR/><BR/>Someone says to the Rebbe: "CHAYOS!"<BR/><BR/>The Rebbe answers: "CHAYOS HAKOIDESH"<BR/><BR/>Moral of the story? Now you know why the Beit HaMikdash needed a miracle to expand so that no one was ever cramped.<BR/><BR/>Otherwise, we'd have a stampede.Jameel @ The Muqatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15890095633246557332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-14236689898669365542007-05-14T15:14:00.000+03:002007-05-14T15:14:00.000+03:00Violent mobs of people to go daven?The police, at ...Violent mobs of people to go daven?<BR/><BR/>The police, at least the atheists among them, have an excuse for their Nietzschean views on the acceptability of abuse. <BR/><BR/>What's our excuse?Mikeagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15827275300296295639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-82084625934248917772007-05-14T14:44:00.000+03:002007-05-14T14:44:00.000+03:00Quite an adventure we had there.The brutality was ...Quite an adventure we had there.<BR/><BR/>The brutality was shocking, and I was still kind of scared about actually going to Shechem. Aside from that, the mob was quite powerful, and it was us against them. We were pretty close to the bus door, but they were being very restrictive, allowing one person on at a time.<BR/><BR/>Oh well; another time, hopefully.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-43557019679950575092007-05-14T14:28:00.000+03:002007-05-14T14:28:00.000+03:00actually I was inclined to fight the mob. I have e...actually I was inclined to fight the mob. I have experience with it and probably could have made the bus. But I had a travelling partner who would not, so i felt it was wrong to do it...Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-38432598719528144312007-05-14T14:23:00.000+03:002007-05-14T14:23:00.000+03:00"We decided not to fight the mob"Good choice."We decided not to fight the mob"<BR/><BR/>Good choice.Cosmic Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13880746347107372827noreply@blogger.com