tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post7080030215097905797..comments2024-03-29T11:40:46.477+03:00Comments on Life in Israel: Not Shaking the Lulav on ShabbatRafi G.http://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-3795171320624006352009-10-13T23:51:20.635+02:002009-10-13T23:51:20.635+02:00The reason why I mention it, or link to it, is so ...The reason why I mention it, or link to it, is so that the new reader who has yet to see it, will see it.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-31598681903695991472009-10-13T22:36:04.271+02:002009-10-13T22:36:04.271+02:00I know I've asked this before, but are followe...I know I've asked this before, but are followers and/or supporters of R' Bar-Hayyim able to mention his name without reminding us that his website is www.machonshilo.org?Mikeagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15827275300296295639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-29582487977001383942009-10-13T22:25:14.551+02:002009-10-13T22:25:14.551+02:00Rav David Bar-Hayim is the most fascinating rabbi ...Rav David Bar-Hayim is the most fascinating rabbi I have ever met. I encourage all to hear his shiurim at www.machonshilo.orgSchwartznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-77516407074083960282009-10-12T16:32:34.729+02:002009-10-12T16:32:34.729+02:00I think that it is a tragedy that so much of the T...I think that it is a tragedy that so much of the Torah world is not familiar with Rav Kook's writings and support for returning to the Talmud Yerushalmi as Jews return to Eretz Yisrael.<br /><br />Kol HaKavod to Rav David Bar-Hayim for being a voice of truth in the wilderness, a voice of courage willing to continue the legacy of Rav Kook, ztz"l.<br /><br />Torat Eretz Yisrael will not fall out of the sky, in much the same way that Mashiach will not either. We ourselves have to adopt pro-active apporaches and make it happen!Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-42356318234338743202009-10-11T22:55:16.031+02:002009-10-11T22:55:16.031+02:00The Talmud Yerushalmi never accepts the position o...The Talmud Yerushalmi never accepts the position of the Talmud Bavli regarding not waving lulav on Shabbath.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-72957752835490078862009-10-11T22:54:34.423+02:002009-10-11T22:54:34.423+02:00Louis,
That's an example of something. Maybe ...Louis,<br /><br />That's an example of something. Maybe "galut mentality", maybe an irresponsible psak, maybe a story with import.bant details missing. What it is <b><i>not</i></b> is a definition of anything.<br /><br />------------------------<br /><br />Anon 10:12,<br /><br />I have no doubts as to Rav bar-Hayyim's sincerity or scholarship. I specifically said that <b><i>his followers or the next generation of leaders may follow a slippery slope of pulling out the "galut mentality" line to support anything they want</i></b>, which will be very easy to do until it clearly defined.<br /><br />I'm not really sure what your point is concerning the eiruv or tefillin all day. (As a side point, wearing tefillin all day does has a "kullah" aspect to it, as it presents the danger that the wearer may not have the proper kavana or be able to maintain a "guf naki". Nothing specific to the point at hand, but it's important to realize that almost any kullah has a "chumrah" aspect to it, and vice-versa.)yoni r.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-12734039408651457482009-10-11T22:41:53.937+02:002009-10-11T22:41:53.937+02:00Shmuel,
Thanks for the vague put-down. If you fee...Shmuel,<br /><br />Thanks for the vague put-down. If you feel that my response is full of inaccuracies (which it may well be), then please take the time to point them out specifically (as I did when I felt that Louis' article was inaccurate) without resorting to a substantially unsupported attack.<br /><br />Perhaps I should refine what I meant. Perhaps people did take the lulav on Shabbat on the first day of Sukkot into the Gaonic times. That may be relevant to what Louis wrote, but not so much to my point. Louis tries to show from the Bavli that the practice in EY was to take the lulav. I attempted to show that this cannot be shown from the Bavli. (Since I wrote a response to Louis, and not an attempt to refute the practice, the scope of the article was limited to what Louis wrote.) If you've got another source, please share.<br /><br />In connection with RYbZ, you are correct. Take out his name and the point still stands - lulav was not proscribed on Shabbat due to the d'rabbanan of muktzeh, but out of a concern for the d'orayta of hotza'ah.<br /><br /><i>This is what Jews of Eretz Yisrael did-it is not a fairy tale. If a learned scholar such as Rav Bar-Hayim wishes to revive a practice which was actually done during the period of the Geonim-why should this be considered radical unless one feels that the Jewish return to Eretz Yisrael during the last century is of no significance.</i><br /><br />I never said it was a fairy tale. I said that it seems (from the sources brought by Louis) that the practice in EY was to not take the lulav.<br /><br />I also fail to understand the connection between the significance of the return to the land in the past century to the revival of long-abandoned practices. I understand the rhetorical intent, but not the logical connection.yoni r.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-61698168082556697672009-10-11T22:25:24.492+02:002009-10-11T22:25:24.492+02:00My advice to all those who have a nagging doubt ab...My advice to all those who have a nagging doubt about whether just maybe Rav Bar-Hayim is "on to something". To those who feel deep inside of them that maybe now that the Jewish nation is returning to Eretz Yisrael that we should be returning to the Talmud Yerushalmi as Rav Kook wrote.<br /><br />Don't just hear ABOUT Rav Bar-Hayim-hear him speak-either live or at www.machonshilo.org I remember all of the naysayers regarding Rabbi Meir Kahane who decades later regret having been anti-Kahane. Don't do the same regarding the visionary of our time!Shmuelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-70714932717467391492009-10-11T22:12:20.965+02:002009-10-11T22:12:20.965+02:00We need not fear the "slippery slope" po...We need not fear the "slippery slope" possiblity regarding Machon Shilo's approach. Rav Bar-Hayim has not hidden agendas. He puts all his cars on the table-and his goal is emeth. His approach is to not necessarily be makil or machmir-yes, he says that kitniyoth on Pesach are mutar, but as has been pointed out-he does not hold by modern neighborhood eruvim, he also happens to wear tefillin all day-not a big kullah either.Aronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-37716458087345321392009-10-11T22:08:48.075+02:002009-10-11T22:08:48.075+02:00Why can't we make a distinction between the sa...Why can't we make a distinction between the saintliness of Rav Chaim Kaniefsky, Rav Michal Lefkowitz, Rav Aharon Leib- and the question of whether they or other great talmidei hachamim of this or previous generations were necessarily correct on a given halachic issue.<br /><br />Furthermore, while the Rishonim were great Torah scholars-how can anyone try to learn Torah seriously without being analytical enough to understand that if Rashi is right on a given issue, then Rambam might necessarily have to be wrong on the same issue. Yes, great Torah scholars can be saintly and incredible scholars but can not always be correct on any given issue.Aronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-42558883328028811132009-10-11T22:04:14.681+02:002009-10-11T22:04:14.681+02:00Permit me to go off topic for a moment.
Evey time...Permit me to go off topic for a moment.<br /><br />Evey time I heard guys tell me they were keeping "one and a half" days of Yom Tov, I had to hold myself back from cringing.<br /><br />Galuth mentality, anyone?Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-71524175938058875542009-10-11T22:01:26.209+02:002009-10-11T22:01:26.209+02:00I propose that a debate be organized between Rav B...I propose that a debate be organized between Rav Bar-Hayim and another talmid hacham from RBS regarding the issue of halachic methodology or any other relevant issues. In any case Rav Bar-Hayim frequently gives shiurim in RBS-it would be a very edifying experience.Shmuelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-81261972283408892982009-10-11T22:01:06.664+02:002009-10-11T22:01:06.664+02:00a "Charedi" family that just made aliyah...<i>a "Charedi" family that just made aliyah and they asked their "Rav" whether they should keep one or two days of chag. He told them that they should keep two days of chag until he makes aliyah.</i><br /><br />who is the "until he makes aliyah"? until the rav makes aliyah? what does their status having already made aliyah have to do with the rav making aliyah?Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-73062136180879677862009-10-11T21:59:06.159+02:002009-10-11T21:59:06.159+02:00I would like to define "galus mentality"...I would like to define "galus mentality" for Yoni:<br /><br />I just heard of a "Charedi" family that just made aliyah and they asked their "Rav" whether they should keep one or two days of chag. He told them that they should keep two days of chag until he makes aliyah.<br /><br />This *is* true. And no, they don't live in Rafi's town. ;-)<br /><br />And yes, further questions about the 4 minim or kitniyot should be referred to Rav Bar-Hayim. Would u be up for coming to a shiur in Yad Binyamin... it's closer than RBS.louis3105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-29853019088627075992009-10-11T21:44:43.577+02:002009-10-11T21:44:43.577+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-15756734407610710632009-10-11T21:37:25.193+02:002009-10-11T21:37:25.193+02:00To those who are spouting haredi-tainted hashkafah...To those who are spouting haredi-tainted hashkafah about how "we can't even begin to understand anything"-anyone heard of kinath sofrim? <br /><br />We can and should believe that Hazal were monumental scholars and Jews-does this mean kinath sofrim did not exist-well, the Gemara, i.e. Hazal seems to say that it did exist. So much for how "funny" the claim is that there could have been a situation of competition between the two Torah centers.Aronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-63551611407567136302009-10-11T21:32:49.841+02:002009-10-11T21:32:49.841+02:00Yoni Ross' article is replete with inaccuracie...Yoni Ross' article is replete with inaccuracies and unfortunately is not as scholarly as it might seem. For now, let me state for the record that it is a historic fact that Jews did wave lulav on Shabbath when the first day fell on Shabbath well into the period of the Geonim. I am told by one scholar that this practice continued until the 8th century.<br /><br />This is what Jews of Eretz Yisrael did-it is not a fairy tale. If a learned scholar such as Rav Bar-Hayim wishes to revive a practice which was actually done during the period of the Geonim-why should this be considered radical unless one feels that the Jewish return to Eretz Yisrael during the last century is of no significance.<br /><br />Ross' presentation regarding R' Yochanan Ben Zakai is also incorrect.<br /><br />I have not yet seen anyone "upshlugg" Rav Bar-Hayim. To witness this one should see Rav Yiar Hoffman's interview which appears on YouTube. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsJGxA5kGWcShmuelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-20724672191496655832009-10-11T19:27:54.686+02:002009-10-11T19:27:54.686+02:00I find it difficult to accept any criticism nor co...I find it difficult to accept any criticism nor counter arguments from you, if you are unwilling to do thorough research into the matter, regardless of your reasons for not doing so.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-74614215772060509212009-10-11T19:18:22.200+02:002009-10-11T19:18:22.200+02:00I am sure he would be the best one. However I have...I am sure he would be the best one. However I have been taught that there is a time to ask a shaila and a time not to ask a shaila. <br /><br />For example, when I wake up in the morning, I dont ask the Rov which pants to wear. When I purchase a suit, I dont ask a shaila, stripes - should they be 2 inches apart or an inch an a half apart.<br /><br />Why not? <br /><br />Simple. I dont have a safek. Aseh lecha rav, v'histalek min hasafek. There is no safek, there is no question. I can buy any suit I darn well please, and I can wear any pair of pants.<br /><br />I dont ask him if I should be a chabadsker - because there is no doubt in my mind regarding this issue (-I- should not be one). <br /><br />In a similar vein, I do not feel the need to contact every scientist, and theorist out there. I am not interested in hearing the nitty gritty details of how the 2012 doomsday people got their ideas from. Sure, they might have proofs and quotes and who knows what. But -I- dont have any questions about it. I think they are nuts. Keeps the busy. Keeps them out of trouble. Great.<br /><br />I do not have any questions about this new shitta. -I- am sure its wrong. I am sure RS can wiggle past me. He can probably run circles around me with sources to his credit. Regardless. -I- think he is wrong. And if I had a shaila, I would ask MY rov, not him. Ein Chadash tachas hashemesh. The Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Shach, whose entire life was spent engrossed in learning until he became as close to a cheftza of Torah as is humanly possible, has taught us that we must follow the mesorah of our fathers. We must follow the way things have been until now. <br /><br />"Galus mentality" ?? My foot! With all due respect, MOST major poskim hold that we are still in Galus. <br /><br />And ALL poskim rule that you can not disregard 2000 years of psakim by saying that there was a competition between EY'dike and Bavel'dike Amoraim - as if they were in a fantasy league to see who can get the most points in Talmud maskanot. <br /><br />My kids have taught me a great lesson, "Me she'omer - Hu be'atzmo" - I am not accusint RS of being in a competition - but HE himself is no greater than the amoraim that he claims (acc tot his article) were in a competition of some sort. So maybe he is following in the footsteps of the amoraim, and himelf is in some competition as to who can be ..... (fill in the blank yourself).<br /><br />I am not looking for his answers to the above. Only questions need answers. This "shitts" doesnt need an answer. Its like the "sanhedrin" which has recently popped up. It needs somethign else, which I dont want to say out loudAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-51134227164608591542009-10-11T19:04:53.530+02:002009-10-11T19:04:53.530+02:00Well, you certainly don't have to contact him....Well, you certainly don't have to contact him. However, he is the one who will be most likely to provide you with adequate answers to your questions.<br /><br />And, with that, I will refer you to him.<br /><br />Although I understand his rulings and shitah, I am not equipped with the skills necessary to explain them adequate, and to answer your challenges.<br /><br />I personally believe that your questions can be answered, and that you should make your challenges known to him.<br /><br />More than a few times, I have tried, and have failed because of my lack of skill.<br /><br />{For example, my blog receives criticism because I am sometimes not clear, in all areas, not just halachic ones.}<br /><br />So, I accept that I do not yet posses the necessary skills to answer your questions sufficiently.<br /><br />And, I do believe that you are entitled to sufficient answers to your questions.<br /><br />Rav Bar Hayim believes that rulings must hold up against scrutiny. However, he cannot defend his rulings, unless he himself is approached.<br /><br />Wouldn't you agree that RBH would be the best one to answer questions about his shitah?Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-78036332462319047562009-10-11T18:54:41.555+02:002009-10-11T18:54:41.555+02:00And one more remark - who invented this Galus ment...And one more remark - who invented this Galus mentality?<br />--- meaning who decided it is null and void at this point in time, and we should therefore disregard all these mainstram psakim of the past 2000 years?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-75422715796982499502009-10-11T18:52:19.544+02:002009-10-11T18:52:19.544+02:00Ben Yehudah - I dont feel a need to contact Rav Sh...Ben Yehudah - I dont feel a need to contact Rav Shilo, the same way I didnt feel a need to say anything to you - until now. Meaning until you said something in a public forum, in which I read, and more importantly, where other people, who can get confused by such confidence (or arrogance, depending on how much respect I wish to have for you) in these "funny" psakim. I say "funny" because thats what they are. Funny. Yes. Funny. Wierd. Strange. Different than anything until now. <br /><br />Who is Rav Shilo that he can change the mesorah? Is he himself a Gadol? Did his rebbeim consider him a Gadol? Did Rav Kapech, who I understand is his Rebbi, also do these strange actions? If so, did he preach that way to other NON-Teimanim? And if so, was his (RK) actions accepted by the Gedolei Yisroel of previous generations? (Note, the question is NOT was RK a Gadol? Thats irrevalent. Even if he was,) was his mesorah accepted for mainstream ashkenazi or sefadi Judaism?<br /><br />If his "shitta" is correct, where is his large following on big talmidei chachamim? <br /><br />We dont have elections, and being "selected" as one of the manhigim of klal yisroel is not a simple and clear process, but BH we have a mesorah of gedolim who have "appointed" their followers. The CC and Reb Chaim Ozer in Europe were accepted by all of European Jewry as the leaders. RCOG "appointed" the CI as the next manhig in his famous letter announcing the arrival of the CI in EY. The CI considered the Rov the next in line. And the Rov considered Rav Shach and the Steipler next in line. Regarding psak, there is a mesorah of how tings work. No its not clear. But its not from way out in left field.<br /><br /><br /><br />But, I state again, like Rafi said, you can not try to attemp to put the amoraim in roles with feelings the way we view the world. This is silliness - at best. And bordering on narishkeit --- The later amoraim - not geonim, rishonim or achronim, but amoraim - considered earlier achronim to malachim. Is that a joke? Is it a guzma? Is that also the galus mentality?<br /><br /><br /><br />And one more remark - who invented this Galus mentality?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-55550996476184376002009-10-11T18:44:54.737+02:002009-10-11T18:44:54.737+02:00OK. Understandable.
Search on machonshilo.org &q...OK. Understandable.<br /><br />Search on machonshilo.org "lulav" which will provide more extensive information than RBH's YNET article.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-62355171527543039012009-10-11T18:42:14.751+02:002009-10-11T18:42:14.751+02:00Ben-Yehuda,
I did not contact the Rav, since Loui...Ben-Yehuda,<br /><br />I did not contact the Rav, since Louis wrote the article in his own name. His point about why we do not take lulav on Shabbat if it falls on the first day was so off the mark that I did not assume that the Rav was behind it.<br /><br />I did ask Louis to point me to an article or some other resource by Rav bar-Hayyim explaining the position, which he did. I have not had time to review it. Once I do, if I have any questions, I will contact the Rav.yoni r.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-79857782369922859262009-10-11T18:41:01.438+02:002009-10-11T18:41:01.438+02:00Email address is found above.
You know what to do...Email address is found above.<br /><br />You know what to do.<br /><br />Rav Bar Hayim will be able to provide you with the best answers to your questions.<br /><br />Furthermore, I encourage you to ask him for clarification of anything he says to you.Esser Agarothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12853681733864707489noreply@blogger.com