tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post8230499438603328844..comments2024-03-28T21:53:53.990+02:00Comments on Life in Israel: From Doublethink to DissentRafi G.http://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-91942146956123291522012-01-02T14:15:41.024+02:002012-01-02T14:15:41.024+02:00Way: I didn't forget your comments. Here is m...Way: I didn't forget your comments. Here is my response:<br /><br />As for Rav Elyashiv's choice of wording and timing, and any mental gymnastics that I may or may not be performing... I have to admit, that even if the saintly Rav would come out straight, in a video published on YouTube, and state unequivocally that it's prohibited for Jews to use the Internet (YouTube aside!), work in a secular workplace, go to the army, or learn anything other than Torah, I would not obey him. He is not my Rebbe, and I do not believe he has the power to demand unflinching compliance by all Jews with his commands. I believe, however conveniently, that he would never do any such thing, does not believe in any such thing, and that his opinion is chronically misrepresented by the askanim, perhaps because it suits me to feel that I'm acting in accordance with the Rav who is generally proclaimed as the "Gadol Hador". But as a rule, I act in accordance with the mesora that <b>I</b> received from <b>my</b> teachers, and if Rav Elyashiv rules differently, that's great for his talmidim, but I am not bound by it.<br /><br />I don't want this to become a whole public polemic. If you want to carry on discussion offline with me, I will be very happy to do so. Please email me at sgb.at.sabreton.comShaul Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13657787388625188732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-44255224909365437292011-12-29T16:38:08.633+02:002011-12-29T16:38:08.633+02:00Interesting observations, David. not sure I agree...Interesting observations, David. not sure I agree with all you've written, but I don't buy this self-classification thing at all, honestly. I know that some other people like to classify themselves as "Charedi", "Dati Leumi", "Chiloni", "Masorati", whatever; I think this is practically a violation of לא תתגודדו. Me, I'm just a Jew. <a href="http://sbehr.blogspot.com/2010/05/i-am-jew.html" rel="nofollow">אני יהודי</a>.Shaul Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13657787388625188732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-51666732085558516512011-12-29T15:14:24.410+02:002011-12-29T15:14:24.410+02:00There is a common misconception among Anglo-Saxon ...There is a common misconception among Anglo-Saxon olim – that Israel is like chutz la'aretz. And by that I mean - there are 2 general directions (1) modern orthodox and (2) black hat. <br /><br />In chutz la'aretz, black hat communities are the ones that hold a strong "commitment to Judaism, to Torah, to taking our obligations seriously and living Jewish in the fullest sense." and the modern orthodox are the ones that are perceived as only "tolerating our religion and finding compromises that allow us to live comfortably despite it." (I am quoting from the post). <br /><br />While that generalization may be successful in the states, it is pointedly false in Israel. In Israel there are 2 general philosophical tracks from which to choose within Orthodox Judaism. Each track has its strong commitment camp, its more modern camp and even an extremist camp. One track is chareidi - where there are modern chareidi, committed chareidi and extremists. We have the luxury of knowing these 3 camps very well within Ramat Beit Shemesh. The second track is the dati leumi track, with the same 3 camps (modern, committed and extremists). The fundamental difference between dati leumi and charedi is ONLY leumi (nationalist) issues. NOT modesty, strictness in halacha, the shininess of an Esrog…nothing. Only Zionism. So unfortunately, many olim come to Israel with natural Zionist tendencies, feelings and beliefs that in fact drive fundamental life decisions (like moving to Israel). In addition, due to the natural pride of building the Jewish homeland, all three Zionist camps respect army service, education and work – even though many of the “committed” and “extremist” camps do not always serve the army, get an education and work. <br /><br />I think this post is quite interesting, but the issue that gets me the most disappointed is the short-sidedness of many olim that immediately classify themselves as chareidi, send their children to chareidi schools, and become DTs (as the post discusses) without realizing there are more viable, logical, and parallel tracks to the normative “religiously committed” community. <br /><br />I think many readers unfortunately fall into that category, many people who went to YU, etc. What do you think?SDavidRamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14538367108960964416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-68779422075724663462011-12-29T14:44:47.120+02:002011-12-29T14:44:47.120+02:00this is from your research:
... We must protest ...this is from your research:<br /><br /><br />... We must protest and warn of all sorts of trends from outside to harm the pure cruse of oil, who found 'special frameworks for Haredim,' which will be under their full control and spirit, included in this are: programs of national service, army service, <br />... <br />They also are encouraging all kinds of institutes and colleges for job training and academic degrees which bring in foreign ambitions absorbed from the outside, and their goal is to bring a change in the spirit and essence of the Haredi public, and act to introduce all sorts of other aspirations, national and enlightenment which our forefathers did not know; and to integrate and connect them with the nonreligious life and the culture of evil people.<br /><br /><br /><br />so your right, he doesn't name any particular program. He simply publishes a letter on the front page of yated against the general army and college programs geared to charediim as a buyer beware warning. And of course he does it now for no particular reason either.<br /><br />its all so general. can't actually mean a thing. right?<br /><br />do you ever step back and see the mental gymnastics you need in order to rationalize and justify and balance the two lives?The Wayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02450690035446068510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-75496028497484775742011-12-29T12:49:24.962+02:002011-12-29T12:49:24.962+02:00Way:
OK, now that I've seen the original lette...Way:<br />OK, now that I've seen the original letter reproduced <a href="http://jewishworker.blogspot.com/2011/12/r-elyashivs-nos-no-to-nachal-charedi-no.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, I can comment with a little more understanding. And it turns out that my point (c) is fully applicable. <br /><br />Read the letter. Nowhere does R' Elyashiv specify any particular program - not Nachal Charedi, not michlalot or charedi colleges, nothing. He only generalizes about programs that are intended to bring Charedim under evil secular influences. I'm also against such things, if they exist. But as for programs that are genuinely intended to help Charedim make a parnossa, while preserving all their religious and lifestyle values - nowhere does the Rav say that he is against charedim learning a trade, and I cannot believe that he would say any such thing. All that this letter is effectively doing is saying, "Beware! There are programs out there that are intended to ensnare Jews into abandoning their values! Don't fall for them! Caveat Emptor!" <br /><br />The askanim do this all the time. When Rav Shteinman came to RBS as a guest of Degel Hatorah before the municipal elections, the next day Gimmel had published posters and flyers saying that Rav Shteinman had said it was nothing less than a Chillul Hashem to vote anything other than Gimmel. Then I read his actual statement, and it said nothing of the sort. All he said was that voting for people with non-Jewish values was a Chillul Hashem. The Gimmel party workers obviously felt that this meant anyone other than themselves, hence the subsequent marketing.<br /><br />So, once again, don't believe what you read in the media, until you've checked the sources. Same applies to charity collectors who shove "haskomas" in your face. Read them. And same applies to when a Rishon quotes a gemara: go to the source and make sure the quote is accurate. The results are sometimes very surprising.Shaul Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13657787388625188732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-38467227812850891002011-12-29T10:10:48.996+02:002011-12-29T10:10:48.996+02:00Shaul!
where r u?
for some reason you didn't...Shaul!<br /><br />where r u?<br /><br />for some reason you didn't trust haaretz's reporting but have no comment on all the other sources.<br /><br /><br />And my next question is this:<br /><br />In today's age, when verification is so easy, things are written, recorded, digital, analog, video, iphone, galaxy, tablet, webcam etc<br /><br />if you can't trust a statement put out by a 'gadol' today then how can you trust anything that is written in the mishna or gemara which was written by people after generations of telephone tag across multiple languages and geographies?<br /><br />or are you going to once again admit that to be religious you have to throw all common sense out the window. which actually sort of brings us back to anonymous' postThe Wayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02450690035446068510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-82817335737987766192011-12-29T09:45:52.178+02:002011-12-29T09:45:52.178+02:00Zev/Shalom:
Don't think the irony of my anonym...Zev/Shalom:<br />Don't think the irony of my anonymity was lost on me. In general I'm usually not shy to speak my mind about this kind of thing, when the consequences are only on me personally. On a private and individual level, I'm very open about my feelings as expressed here, so I'm sure a lot of readers of this article will be able to piece together who I am, and I'm totally OK that. But when it comes to making a grand public statement like this, and the possibility of serious unintended consequences for my children, I prefer to have plausible deniability on my side, if you get my meaning. :-)The Original Authornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-73502396548877449862011-12-29T09:39:39.603+02:002011-12-29T09:39:39.603+02:00shalom - I guess it is common sense itself that is...shalom - I guess it is common sense itself that is dangerous...Rafi G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00699851287106903971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-52521505837110536592011-12-29T08:41:02.240+02:002011-12-29T08:41:02.240+02:00Not sure what was so "dangerous" in this...Not sure what was so "dangerous" in this article that it called for anonymosity. Pure common sense.Shalomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-70923619753419623862011-12-28T22:06:09.370+02:002011-12-28T22:06:09.370+02:00good article, but the fact that is was anonymous m...good article, but the fact that is was anonymous made me laugh. Expecting other charedim to rebel against the system, putting themselves on the line and the author himself does not want to be identified!!zev davingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-37284962457365856282011-12-28T21:07:49.611+02:002011-12-28T21:07:49.611+02:00Baruch, I share that thought. If the so called &qu...Baruch, I share that thought. If the so called "Gadolim" don't care what is said in their name, why should I?Zach Kessinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04276155117746098546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-34808460046762067062011-12-28T18:38:34.382+02:002011-12-28T18:38:34.382+02:00Does it really matter? It seem to me that if someo...Does it really matter? It seem to me that if someone is so out of touch with the world that he can be as constantly misquoted as Rav Elyashiv is reputed to be, without being able to find a way to indicate his true opinions to the public, this is not someone whose advice is worth arguing about (or taking).Baruch Gitlinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-79280170549288888022011-12-28T18:02:40.160+02:002011-12-28T18:02:40.160+02:00Shaul: Would you take it more seriously from the Y...Shaul: Would you take it more seriously from the Yossed Neman and Bechadrei?<br /><br />http://www.bhol.co.il/article.aspx?id=36044&cat=6&scat=40Shmildanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-12282346832555070792011-12-28T17:35:40.252+02:002011-12-28T17:35:40.252+02:00Way: Even though it appears in genuine black and w...Way: Even though it appears in genuine black and white, in a publication as committed to truth as Haaretz, I am still skeptical on several counts:<br />a) Did Rav Elyashiv really write it? Or even sign it knowingly?<br />b) Even if he did write it, how much of it did he write, and how much was edited/rewritten by his askanim?<br />c) Even if he did wittingly write it and sign in its entirety, who excerpted and translated it? Were they faithful to the original? Did they leave out crucial pieces?<br /><br />In short, I remain unconvinced.Shaul Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13657787388625188732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-12895638153675126832011-12-28T16:02:58.274+02:002011-12-28T16:02:58.274+02:00and yet check out what R Eliyashav wrote and was p...and yet check out what R Eliyashav wrote and was published in the yated:<br /><br />http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/ultra-orthodox-leader-calls-for-boycott-of-idf-college-programs-1.403983The Wayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02450690035446068510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20257999.post-13511291241648854582011-12-28T15:52:06.635+02:002011-12-28T15:52:06.635+02:00Great article, thanks for posting it! I particular...Great article, thanks for posting it! I particularly agree with the part about chumras having corresponding kulas, and the quote "If you hear people saying 'Daas Torah' or 'The Gedolim Say', run a mile - because as one senior Rabbi told me, that's a sign of insecure people trying to squash debate." I've seen many a debate squashed that way, which is very frustrating for people that appreciate the benefits of rational discussion.Baruch Gitlinnoreply@blogger.com