I am not sure I understand. Yehoshua's kever is a segulah? Wasn't he the one who went in and and slaughtered women and children as his conquering army?
Well I guess everything is good when you say god told you to do it.
where does it say anythign about a segulah? it is davening to Hashem at the grave of one who is considered a tzaddik and one of the leaders of Israel. Hopefully his merit helps the prayers get to where they need to go (a little protexia can't hurt). But a segulah? It is not a segulah as far as I know...
Fair enough, I chose the wrong word. But the point remains. He is considered a tzaddik either despite or in part because of his slaughter of women and children.
And, speaking of yehoshua, given the whole torah m'sinai issue, did he read ahead of time that he would slaughter the women and children? or did god preform a miracle that although the whole torah was given at sinai that people wouldn't be able to unroll the scroll past their time period?
Anon: The torah is often called tanach, which includes neviem. However, if you want to limit torah m'sinai to the five books than I would ask, did the spies know they would transgress? Did they read the results of their mission before they went to spy? Did all the people know that Moshe would die before entering eretz yisrael?
Also, just checking on my origional point, so you're cool with the whole slaughtering women and children thing?
I've heard some answers for the foreknowledge questions,but don't remember them offhand(but they exist).
Per the killing,no.- I'm jewish so I'll explain with a question.
When you ask your questions are you proving G-d must not have said/done/want that?
Or are you saying that even if he does/did it was wrong?
ie Killing the women and children. Does that prove G-d wasn't involved or is it a "How could he?"
Personally,once I believe there is a G-d,and that the Torah as we received it, is from Him, then all the questions can wait for as I find answers. He gave life so he can take it away. Whether they didn't feel the pain or were being punished for past lives or whatever the explanation is, He has his reasons.
He created and continues to do so much for us. We don't come close to his level of understanding. He can expect us to trust him even without always understanding.
So I guess i will just take your word that there is a satisfactory answer to the foreknowledge issue. In your version, does torah m'sinai include tanach or just the big five?
As for the genocide issue:
"When you ask your questions are you proving G-d must not have said/done/want that?"
I am proving nothing. I am asking a question in order to gather data, to get a response and see which set of information on the topic is the most reasonable way to understand the concept and the world. This responds to most of your questions. Which is why answering with a question only works if you actually answer the question, not if you are just assuming a defensive posture.
"He gave life so he can take it away. Whether they didn't feel the pain or were being punished for past lives or whatever the explanation is, He has his reasons."
He has the right to do what he wants, but as we know from the story of exodus, although the jews were fated to be enslaved by egypt, they were punished because they chose to fufill their fate and enslave the jews. Is the same not true here? He can choose to take the life of women and children in any manner he sees fit. Is it ok for a human to perform that genocide in his name?
"He created and continues to do so much for us. We don't come close to his level of understanding. He can expect us to trust him even without always understanding."
While I have an oppossing viewpoint, assuming you are correct and that all is fated and we are puppets with no free will and that we cannot hope to understand or make choices on concepts such as genocide, how can we make any choices on anything or interpret anything or study anything when we clearly have no choice or understanding of the issues.
No need to apologise for the speech, and being a jew myself I am intimate with the rules of the shtetle debate system.
One last question before I wish everyone a chag sameach:
If something supernatural occurs, and you can't question the issue or judge the issue and simply have to accept the supernatural directive, how do you know the directive is not a trick by a bad demi-god or the devil? After all, even in the torah it makes allowances for other powers, just none as great as the jewish god. But those powers are surely capable of tricking a human.
I don't think *anyone* thinks Torah miSinai means all of Tanach. And in terms of Torah, see the gemara that says Moshe wrote it as one scroll after another as they progressed through the midbar.
I am not sure I understand. Yehoshua's kever is a segulah? Wasn't he the one who went in and and slaughtered women and children as his conquering army?
ReplyDeleteWell I guess everything is good when you say god told you to do it.
where does it say anythign about a segulah? it is davening to Hashem at the grave of one who is considered a tzaddik and one of the leaders of Israel. Hopefully his merit helps the prayers get to where they need to go (a little protexia can't hurt). But a segulah? It is not a segulah as far as I know...
ReplyDeleteFair enough, I chose the wrong word. But the point remains. He is considered a tzaddik either despite or in part because of his slaughter of women and children.
ReplyDeleteHow is this considered good?
And, speaking of yehoshua, given the whole torah m'sinai issue, did he read ahead of time that he would slaughter the women and children? or did god preform a miracle that although the whole torah was given at sinai that people wouldn't be able to unroll the scroll past their time period?
ReplyDelete1-We believe G-d did tell him.
ReplyDelete2-The book of Yehoshua is part of Neviim,which was written after the fact.
Anon: The torah is often called tanach, which includes neviem. However, if you want to limit torah m'sinai to the five books than I would ask, did the spies know they would transgress? Did they read the results of their mission before they went to spy? Did all the people know that Moshe would die before entering eretz yisrael?
ReplyDeleteAlso, just checking on my origional point, so you're cool with the whole slaughtering women and children thing?
Anon 1 here-
ReplyDeleteI've heard some answers for the foreknowledge questions,but don't remember them offhand(but they exist).
Per the killing,no.-
I'm jewish so I'll explain with a question.
When you ask your questions are you proving G-d must not have said/done/want that?
Or are you saying that even if he does/did it was wrong?
ie Killing the women and children.
Does that prove G-d wasn't involved or is it a "How could he?"
Personally,once I believe there is a G-d,and that the Torah as we received it, is from Him, then all the questions
can wait for as I find answers.
He gave life so he can take it away.
Whether they didn't feel the pain or were being punished for past lives or whatever the explanation is, He has his reasons.
He created and continues to do so much for us. We don't come close to his level of understanding.
He can expect us to trust him even without always understanding.
That's the gist of it for me.
Anon.1
p.s.-sorry for the speech,but you asked.
So I guess i will just take your word that there is a satisfactory answer to the foreknowledge issue. In your version, does torah m'sinai include tanach or just the big five?
ReplyDeleteAs for the genocide issue:
"When you ask your questions are you proving G-d must not have said/done/want that?"
I am proving nothing. I am asking a question in order to gather data, to get a response and see which set of information on the topic is the most reasonable way to understand the concept and the world.
This responds to most of your questions. Which is why answering with a question only works if you actually answer the question, not if you are just assuming a defensive posture.
"He gave life so he can take it away.
Whether they didn't feel the pain or were being punished for past lives or whatever the explanation is, He has his reasons."
He has the right to do what he wants, but as we know from the story of exodus, although the jews were fated to be enslaved by egypt, they were punished because they chose to fufill their fate and enslave the jews. Is the same not true here? He can choose to take the life of women and children in any manner he sees fit. Is it ok for a human to perform that genocide in his name?
"He created and continues to do so much for us. We don't come close to his level of understanding.
He can expect us to trust him even without always understanding."
While I have an oppossing viewpoint, assuming you are correct and that all is fated and we are puppets with no free will and that we cannot hope to understand or make choices on concepts such as genocide, how can we make any choices on anything or interpret anything or study anything when we clearly have no choice or understanding of the issues.
No need to apologise for the speech, and being a jew myself I am intimate with the rules of the shtetle debate system.
Anon 1 again
ReplyDeleteI glanced through but don't have time to post before yom tov.
Chag Kosher VeSameach
One last question before I wish everyone a chag sameach:
ReplyDeleteIf something supernatural occurs, and you can't question the issue or judge the issue and simply have to accept the supernatural directive, how do you know the directive is not a trick by a bad demi-god or the devil? After all, even in the torah it makes allowances for other powers, just none as great as the jewish god. But those powers are surely capable of tricking a human.
Chag sameach all.
I don't think *anyone* thinks Torah miSinai means all of Tanach. And in terms of Torah, see the gemara that says Moshe wrote it as one scroll after another as they progressed through the midbar.
ReplyDelete