kol hakavode. I like seeing things like this, and i think its a bit of a kiddush hashem that the chilonim should see that the chareidim are not parading in the streets, but acknowledge proper respect. Beyond that, i loved the comment about having to come back again and do it again... that was great.
Hello - just as some hilonim have a stereotyped vision of haredim, the opposite is also true. Your post is a sad example of this and a major hillul H' in the denigration of a dead person who did a lot, and I mean a lot, for Israel. Please read the following article and think again before you write on Yosef (Tommi) Lapid z"l: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/06/former-chief-ra.html
yaakov - I am not sure how I denigrated Lapid. I wrote how I was pleasantly surprised to see how the Haredi politicians, and subsequently the average Haredi guy on the street, had generally nice things to say about him and not mean things. In the original post I even quoted Rabbi Lau (the subject of the post you linked to). So I am not sure what the issue is. Maybe you misunderstood the tone?
Hello Rafi G: let me see... "Lapid founded the Shinui party and his whole being was dedicated to fighting the Haredim and Haredi parties. People called him anti-semitic, but I never thought of him like that. I thought he was anti-Haredi and perhaps anti-religious (that was less clear), but not anti-semitic." So, according to Rav Lau he wasn't anti-haredi, or anti-religious - he was against the political and social hutzpe of many haredim who do not serve in the army, who pay less taxes, who do not work, who get cheques from the state, and who still live here. He was against social injustice. Haredim always put it on a religious level - to attack them is to attack Judaism. Lapid was against the imposition of the religious dogma of some minority groups that refuse to take part actively in the life of the country and YET pretend to be respected as the bastion of Judaism... That is the major insult I saw in your posting. I did not misunderstand: I can see the nuances...
I think either I am misunderstanding you or you are misunderstanding me. When Lapid was alive and he and the Haredi parties were bitter enemies, I was under the impression that he was anti-Haredi to the extreme. the context of the fight led me to believe that.
now that he has died, I would have expected, based on the history I am familiar with, that the Haredi politicians and pundits would simply have had nothing good to say about him at best and at worst say things that could be downright nasty.
That is what I expected to happen, but that is not what happened.
What happened is the Haredi pols and others said nothing mean about him and only described Lapid in the best of terms, framing their fights as not personal and anti-Haredi but as disagreements of style and method.
Probably both - but I'm just expressing my frustration with one of the hypocrisies that drive my country daily. All I see in the haredi society is privileges - where are their obligations? If they are loyal only to the Torah, or better to their sclerotic understanding of tradition, then why don't they go live somewhere else? In the US do they behave like this? Do they get health insurance without a proper job? Can they afford to just sit on a chair all day "learning" Torah, when the majority of the citizens work for their monthly pay? And then there's the most disturbing thing of all - why must my son go to the army, while the black-hatted boys in Geula or Bayit Vegan remain safe and sound in their precious yeshivas? Lapid fought for these and other injustices. Whether the haredi tzibur now acts ethically is really unimportant - the critically important matter is how and when things are going to change. When are they going to stop being the bastion of True Judaism, since they are NOT? When are they going to stop being the definers of who is a Jew? When are they going to pay taxes? When are they going to accept the presence of secular citizens who do not share their world picture? And when in there going to be another Lapid to give a disenchanted counter-voice to the populist lies of Shas and the self-centered elitism of Yahadut Hatorah? Israel is not a theocracy, yet...
kol hakavode. I like seeing things like this, and i think its a bit of a kiddush hashem that the chilonim should see that the chareidim are not parading in the streets, but acknowledge proper respect.
ReplyDeleteBeyond that, i loved the comment about having to come back again and do it again... that was great.
Hello - just as some hilonim have a stereotyped vision of haredim, the opposite is also true. Your post is a sad example of this and a major hillul H' in the denigration of a dead person who did a lot, and I mean a lot, for Israel. Please read the following article and think again before you write on Yosef (Tommi) Lapid z"l: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/06/former-chief-ra.html
ReplyDeleteyaakov - I am not sure how I denigrated Lapid. I wrote how I was pleasantly surprised to see how the Haredi politicians, and subsequently the average Haredi guy on the street, had generally nice things to say about him and not mean things. In the original post I even quoted Rabbi Lau (the subject of the post you linked to). So I am not sure what the issue is. Maybe you misunderstood the tone?
ReplyDeleteHello Rafi G: let me see... "Lapid founded the Shinui party and his whole being was dedicated to fighting the Haredim and Haredi parties. People called him anti-semitic, but I never thought of him like that. I thought he was anti-Haredi and perhaps anti-religious (that was less clear), but not anti-semitic." So, according to Rav Lau he wasn't anti-haredi, or anti-religious - he was against the political and social hutzpe of many haredim who do not serve in the army, who pay less taxes, who do not work, who get cheques from the state, and who still live here. He was against social injustice. Haredim always put it on a religious level - to attack them is to attack Judaism. Lapid was against the imposition of the religious dogma of some minority groups that refuse to take part actively in the life of the country and YET pretend to be respected as the bastion of Judaism... That is the major insult I saw in your posting. I did not misunderstand: I can see the nuances...
ReplyDeleteI think either I am misunderstanding you or you are misunderstanding me.
ReplyDeleteWhen Lapid was alive and he and the Haredi parties were bitter enemies, I was under the impression that he was anti-Haredi to the extreme. the context of the fight led me to believe that.
now that he has died, I would have expected, based on the history I am familiar with, that the Haredi politicians and pundits would simply have had nothing good to say about him at best and at worst say things that could be downright nasty.
That is what I expected to happen, but that is not what happened.
What happened is the Haredi pols and others said nothing mean about him and only described Lapid in the best of terms, framing their fights as not personal and anti-Haredi but as disagreements of style and method.
Probably both - but I'm just expressing my frustration with one of the hypocrisies that drive my country daily. All I see in the haredi society is privileges - where are their obligations? If they are loyal only to the Torah, or better to their sclerotic understanding of tradition, then why don't they go live somewhere else? In the US do they behave like this? Do they get health insurance without a proper job? Can they afford to just sit on a chair all day "learning" Torah, when the majority of the citizens work for their monthly pay? And then there's the most disturbing thing of all - why must my son go to the army, while the black-hatted boys in Geula or Bayit Vegan remain safe and sound in their precious yeshivas? Lapid fought for these and other injustices. Whether the haredi tzibur now acts ethically is really unimportant - the critically important matter is how and when things are going to change. When are they going to stop being the bastion of True Judaism, since they are NOT? When are they going to stop being the definers of who is a Jew? When are they going to pay taxes? When are they going to accept the presence of secular citizens who do not share their world picture? And when in there going to be another Lapid to give a disenchanted counter-voice to the populist lies of Shas and the self-centered elitism of Yahadut Hatorah? Israel is not a theocracy, yet...
ReplyDelete