He thinks he is the Melech HaMashiach, with the Beis HaMikdash in the backgroud, and the building of the Mikdash as one of his campaign promises, doesn't he? Accorrding to the Rambam אם עשה והצליח, וניצח כל האומות שסביביו, ובנה מקדש במקומו, וקיבץ נדחי ישראל--הרי זה משיח בוודאי
Moshe Feiglin does a wonderful job of summarizing the HaRav's philosophy. That is after all what Eretz Israel is all about. David Shapira would agree - an Israel that does not submit to the yoke of heaven is in truth no Israel at all.
Moshe Feiglin has a good message but he is not diplomatic enough to deal with the rest of the world. Unfortunately he will always be considered as an "outsider" and "extremist"
Shy Guy Moshe Feiglin thinks he's the מלך המשיח. 1. He has the Mikdash in the background 2. He claims he will be Elected PM 3. He claims when he is elected he will build the בית המקדש 4. According to the Rambam אם עשה והצליח, וניצח כל האומות שסביביו, ובנה מקדש במקומו, וקיבץ נדחי ישראל--הרי זה משיח בוודאי Therefore assuming Feiglin holds like the Rambam, he therefore has concluded that he is the מלך המשיח. As the other views involve the Mikdash coming doens from heaven, it doesn't make much sense to say he's going with them.
MuL - the rambam you quoted is saying after the fact - if he built the mikdash successfully. Feiglin wants to, as we all should (isn't it our goal as religious Jews, and even if not, itis at least a mitzva we should want to do, aside from the fact that we pray for it 3 times a day), but has not done it yet.
Rafi out obligation is to want that it will be built, and believe that it will be built. Many don't believe it will be built by human hands R Mordechai Eliyahu holds it will come from heaven, for example). Even if you do hold this way, there is no need to believe that you personally are going to do it. Feiglin believes he will do it.
"believes he will do it" does not make him mashiach, even according to the rambam you quoted. Maybe after he will have done it, but not based on future belief.
Rafi, you're right. Since according to the Rambam no one is the mashiach until he builds the Mikdash, I should have written "Moshe Feiglin believes he will be the Mashiach, retroactivley to some earlier point which may include now"
----------------------------------- מול העינם said... Shy Guy Moshe Feiglin thinks he's the מלך המשיח. 1. He has the Mikdash in the background ===================================
I have been in many homes with such pictures adorning main walls, as center-pieces. None of those homeowners assume that they are the mashiach.
Why is the yearning for seeing the Beit Hamikdash built and stressing it visually a sign or a proof that someone claims to be a mashiach?
Even in the simplest terms, have you ever though about have the Arabs portray the barren Har Habayit as their main backdrop in so many of their videos. To me this seems to be the perfect contrasting message. I think you didn't ch'ap.
Strike one.
----------------------------------- 2. He claims he will be Elected PM ===================================
So did most other pols who ran for election. Only this has been a goal of Manhigut Yehudit's since day one. And their goal is for Feiglin to be the FIRST, looking forward to a continuim of Jewish leadership thereafter, no less by others who follow.
Furthermore, I was never aware that being adamant about reaching the goal to be elected as PM is the equivalent or a pre-condition of being mashiach.
Strike two.
----------------------------------- 3. He claims when he is elected he will build the בית המקדש ===================================
Link? Quote? For example, Feiglin says no such thing in any of the last chapters in his book "The War of Dreams", those chapters being dedicated to the subject of the Beit Hamikdash.
----------------------------------- 4. According to the Rambam אם עשה והצליח, וניצח כל האומות שסביביו, ובנה מקדש במקומו, וקיבץ נדחי ישראל--הרי זה משיח בוודאי Therefore assuming Feiglin holds like the Rambam, he therefore has concluded that he is the מלך המשיח.
===================================
You have elementary problems in Hebrew comprehension. Rafi has already pointed this out.
Strike 3 - y'rrrrrr out!!!
Tell us, Mul, what is the halacha regarding making claims publicly against a fellow Jew that either are foudationless or are distortions?
What did Chazal say destroyed the Bayit Sheinu, which aludes to our biggest michshol in seeing it rebuilt one way or the other? Bim'hera b'yameinu.
Shy Guy You missed my point A person who believes that claims that he will ber PM one day, and as PM will build the Mikdash, is claiming that he will be the Mashiach one day. The mikdash background on its own means nothing but it brings context to 2+3. He made a film a few years back showing a news broascast after his party "Yisrael Yehudit" picked up about 78 seats in the Knesset elcetions, and shows him the newly elected Prime Minister discussing the immediate construction of the Mikdash.
You have a problem with this dream? I thought - in the big picture sense - we all share it.
BTW, notice in the video that the "Rosh Hamemshalah" with the big white kippa on his head who goes to make a speach on Har Habayit is not even Moshe Feiglin himself.
Your accusations are laid waste for what they are: sin'at chinam.
When you personally interview Mr. Feiglin and he tells you what you accuse him of thinking and being, let us know.
How you'll go about apologizing to him for what you write ba'rabim - well, good luck to you.
shy guy taken from JPOST Moshe Feiglin, head of Manhigut Yehudit (Jewish Leadership Movement) said last week that if he was elected prime minister, he would try to rebuild the destroyed Temple in Jerusalem
Shy Guy Assuming that Moshe Feiglin has Messianic ambitions, why does it make him into a bad person? What have I said here that implies that I hate the man, indeed I don't, he is doing what he think is outta be done for goals I by and large agree with.
Mul - I still see nothing wrong with him saying that. I hope he would as well. I am not one to decide the debate of whether it will come from heaven or be humanly built, but at least I respect that that is one serious side to the debate (I even think it is the right one, but that makes no difference). That being so, I have no problem with him aspiring to build the mikdash - aderaba, to me it is a benefit.
But it still does not make him mashiach. Only after he would be successful, according to the quoted rambam, could that be debated.
Can you imagine the Yetzer Harah! We're surrounded by shiv'im Ze'evim, have completely incompetent leaders both in Torah and in chachmah, someone comes around and says let's follow the ways of the Avot and the messages of the Nevi'im and Gedolei Hatorah through the generations, and then some groisseh chachamim come along and pull snakes out of their hats to disparage such a person.
Shy Guy Why do you think I hate him? Even if you think I'm off base, what am I accusing him of? Rafi A. If he believes he will be elected but idsn't sure whether he'll build the מקדש or if B.he will build the mikdash upon being elected bus isn't sure whether that will happen
then he has no messianic pretensions But if he believes A and B (which he has said, but never together) then he believes he will be the Mashiach
mul - in that article he said he aspires to build and hopes he would be successful. he might not be, but I too hope he would be if he was in the position to.
mul - I understand the confusion caused perhaps by his saying he wants to build the mikdash, but what does his desire or plan to become PM have to do with it?
The Lubavitcher rebbe never planned on becoming PM but [many of] his followers think he is/was/will be the mashiach.
Shy Guy Can you imagine the Yetzer Harah! "We're surrounded by shiv'im Ze'evim", aggreed "have completely incompetent leaders both in Torah and in chachmah, someone comes around and says let's follow the ways of the Avot and the messages of the Nevi'im and Gedolei Hatorah through the generations,"
I don't know what the Neviim would say about todays situation. Yeshayu and Yirmiyahu were very cautious about confronting the world powers of their day, I don't know whether they would have sanctioned the speech above As the Gedolai Hatorah through the generations have different views regarding Yishuv Haaretz, Zionism, Mashiach, Geula, Mikdash, it is impossible for a person to be following them all. Manhigut Yehudit is about alot of things following the Gedolai Hatorah through the generations" is not one of them, and I'm sure Moshe Feiglin would be the first to state that. Moshe never really went to Yeshiva, doesn't seem to have any Rabbeim or Gedolim that he consults with, and marches to his own tune.
Rafi being PM per se has nothing to do with it. He wants to be PM in order to build the Mikdash, among other things. It is obvious that Feiglin's view of the Geula (whether or not you accept my point) is much more rationalist, and EY oriented than a Rebbe that refused to leave Brooklyn, and felt strongly (despite his right wing views) that the State of Israel had nothing to do with the geula, and its founding itself was a violation of the ג שבועות
its funny after all the 70 wolves "bnei-torah" do not give your full-throated support to someone who talks about the nation of israel returning to its jewish roots stabilizing its own land and fuffiling its destiny and its capability
you make it sound like its a bad endeavor to be involved with strengthing the jewish people and their connection to jewish values is not optional its a must!
Sounds like Mul Ha'Einaim is saying that each Jew is obligated to prevent himself from being the moschiach. Sort of like saying Jews are required to stay in galut..... A fullproof philosophy for perpetuating galut.
Anon 4:04, Shy Guy, If Moshe Feiglin is elected Prime Minister and attempts to build the Beis HaMikdash, I will personally go to the Einam where the quarries are to shlep the stones. What did I say to attack him or that the galut should be perpetuated
He thinks he is the Melech HaMashiach, with the Beis HaMikdash in the backgroud, and the building of the Mikdash as one of his campaign promises, doesn't he?
ReplyDeleteAccorrding to the Rambam אם עשה והצליח, וניצח כל האומות שסביביו, ובנה מקדש במקומו, וקיבץ נדחי ישראל--הרי זה משיח בוודאי
I don't think he thinks he is mashiach, but maybe he thinks he can help spur mashiachs arrival.
ReplyDeletehe is right then every Jew can help spur Moshiachs arrival
ReplyDeleteMoshe Feiglin does a wonderful job of summarizing the HaRav's philosophy. That is after all what Eretz Israel is all about. David Shapira would agree - an Israel that does not submit to the yoke of heaven is in truth no Israel at all.
ReplyDeletethe Gra says that any Jew who lives in E"Y, hastens the geula
ReplyDelete(heard this from Rebbitzin Heller, Q&A part 11 from naaleh.com)
Anon 11:59
ReplyDeleteThat has nothing to do with anything I said. I claim that Feiglin has Messianic pretensions.
Moshe Feiglin has a good message but he is not diplomatic enough to deal with the rest of the world. Unfortunately he will always be considered as an "outsider" and "extremist"
ReplyDeleteGo ahead, Mul Ha'Einaim. Back up your claims. Waiting......
ReplyDeleteShy Guy
ReplyDeleteMoshe Feiglin thinks he's the מלך המשיח.
1. He has the Mikdash in the background
2. He claims he will be Elected PM
3. He claims when he is elected he will build the בית המקדש
4. According to the Rambam אם עשה והצליח, וניצח כל האומות שסביביו, ובנה מקדש במקומו, וקיבץ נדחי ישראל--הרי זה משיח בוודאי
Therefore assuming Feiglin holds like the Rambam, he therefore has concluded that he is the מלך המשיח. As the other views involve the Mikdash coming doens from heaven, it doesn't make much sense to say he's going with them.
MuL - the rambam you quoted is saying after the fact - if he built the mikdash successfully.
ReplyDeleteFeiglin wants to, as we all should (isn't it our goal as religious Jews, and even if not, itis at least a mitzva we should want to do, aside from the fact that we pray for it 3 times a day), but has not done it yet.
Rafi out obligation is to want that it will be built, and believe that it will be built.
ReplyDeleteMany don't believe it will be built by human hands R Mordechai Eliyahu holds it will come from heaven, for example).
Even if you do hold this way, there is no need to believe that you personally are going to do it.
Feiglin believes he will do it.
"believes he will do it" does not make him mashiach, even according to the rambam you quoted.
ReplyDeleteMaybe after he will have done it, but not based on future belief.
Rafi, you're right.
ReplyDeleteSince according to the Rambam no one is the mashiach until he builds the Mikdash, I should have written "Moshe Feiglin believes he will be the Mashiach, retroactivley to some earlier point which may include now"
-----------------------------------
ReplyDeleteמול העינם
said...
Shy Guy
Moshe Feiglin thinks he's the מלך המשיח.
1. He has the Mikdash in the background
===================================
I have been in many homes with such pictures adorning main walls, as center-pieces. None of those homeowners assume that they are the mashiach.
Why is the yearning for seeing the Beit Hamikdash built and stressing it visually a sign or a proof that someone claims to be a mashiach?
Even in the simplest terms, have you ever though about have the Arabs portray the barren Har Habayit as their main backdrop in so many of their videos. To me this seems to be the perfect contrasting message. I think you didn't ch'ap.
Strike one.
-----------------------------------
2. He claims he will be Elected PM
===================================
So did most other pols who ran for election. Only this has been a goal of Manhigut Yehudit's since day one. And their goal is for Feiglin to be the FIRST, looking forward to a continuim of Jewish leadership thereafter, no less by others who follow.
Furthermore, I was never aware that being adamant about reaching the goal to be elected as PM is the equivalent or a pre-condition of being mashiach.
Strike two.
-----------------------------------
3. He claims when he is elected he will build the בית המקדש
===================================
Link? Quote? For example, Feiglin says no such thing in any of the last chapters in his book "The War of Dreams", those chapters being dedicated to the subject of the Beit Hamikdash.
-----------------------------------
4. According to the Rambam אם עשה והצליח, וניצח כל האומות שסביביו, ובנה מקדש במקומו, וקיבץ נדחי ישראל--הרי זה משיח בוודאי
Therefore assuming Feiglin holds like the Rambam, he therefore has concluded that he is the מלך המשיח.
===================================
You have elementary problems in Hebrew comprehension. Rafi has already pointed this out.
Strike 3 - y'rrrrrr out!!!
Tell us, Mul, what is the halacha regarding making claims publicly against a fellow Jew that either are foudationless or are distortions?
What did Chazal say destroyed the Bayit Sheinu, which aludes to our biggest michshol in seeing it rebuilt one way or the other? Bim'hera b'yameinu.
Excuse the spelling and grammar errors above.
ReplyDeleteShy Guy
ReplyDeleteYou missed my point
A person who believes that claims that he will ber PM one day, and as PM will build the Mikdash, is claiming that he will be the Mashiach one day.
The mikdash background on its own means nothing but it brings context to 2+3.
He made a film a few years back showing a news broascast after his party "Yisrael Yehudit" picked up about 78 seats in the Knesset elcetions, and shows him the newly elected Prime Minister discussing the immediate construction of the Mikdash.
Besides, Feiglin does not sheppard sheep.
ReplyDeleteHe goes off-trail biking.
That disqualifies him right there.
:)
Mul, I just read your last post.
ReplyDeleteYou need to learn pshat in every day events.
This is the video clip you are referring to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IyiHRlLFkY
You have a problem with this dream? I thought - in the big picture sense - we all share it.
BTW, notice in the video that the "Rosh Hamemshalah" with the big white kippa on his head who goes to make a speach on Har Habayit is not even Moshe Feiglin himself.
Your accusations are laid waste for what they are: sin'at chinam.
When you personally interview Mr. Feiglin and he tells you what you accuse him of thinking and being, let us know.
How you'll go about apologizing to him for what you write ba'rabim - well, good luck to you.
shy guy
ReplyDeletetaken from JPOST
Moshe Feiglin, head of Manhigut Yehudit (Jewish Leadership Movement) said last week that if he was elected prime minister, he would try to rebuild the destroyed Temple in Jerusalem
Once again, link, please.
ReplyDeleteshy guy
ReplyDeletehttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2234955/posts
Nevermind. I found it:
ReplyDeleteFeiglin: If I were PM, I'd rebuild the Temple
Just read it. Can you spot your reading comprehension mistake? You seem to have many.
You really owe the man an apology now.
Shy Guy
ReplyDeleteAssuming that Moshe Feiglin has Messianic ambitions, why does it make him into a bad person?
What have I said here that implies that I hate the man, indeed I don't, he is doing what he think is outta be done for goals I by and large agree with.
Shy Guy
ReplyDeleteIn one place he shows he believes he will be elected PM
In another he claims that if elected he will rebuild the mikdash
Mul - I still see nothing wrong with him saying that. I hope he would as well.
ReplyDeleteI am not one to decide the debate of whether it will come from heaven or be humanly built, but at least I respect that that is one serious side to the debate (I even think it is the right one, but that makes no difference). That being so, I have no problem with him aspiring to build the mikdash - aderaba, to me it is a benefit.
But it still does not make him mashiach. Only after he would be successful, according to the quoted rambam, could that be debated.
Just more sin'at chinum. Nothing new under the sun.
ReplyDeleteCan you imagine the Yetzer Harah! We're surrounded by shiv'im Ze'evim, have completely incompetent leaders both in Torah and in chachmah, someone comes around and says let's follow the ways of the Avot and the messages of the Nevi'im and Gedolei Hatorah through the generations, and then some groisseh chachamim come along and pull snakes out of their hats to disparage such a person.
ReplyDeleteAchen nodah hadavar.
Shy Guy
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think I hate him? Even if you think I'm off base, what am I accusing him of?
Rafi A. If he believes he will be elected but idsn't sure whether he'll build the מקדש or if
B.he will build the mikdash upon being elected bus isn't sure whether that will happen
then he has no messianic pretensions
But if he believes A and B (which he has said, but never together)
then he believes he will be the Mashiach
mul - in that article he said he aspires to build and hopes he would be successful.
ReplyDeletehe might not be, but I too hope he would be if he was in the position to.
He doesn't believe. He dreams.
ReplyDeleteSo do I. It should come today. Now. Here. This instant.
Look at your first words at the top of this thread: "He thinks he is the Melech HaMashiach."
Grow up.
לעולם יהא אדם ירא שמים ומודה על האמת
ReplyDeletemul - I understand the confusion caused perhaps by his saying he wants to build the mikdash, but what does his desire or plan to become PM have to do with it?
ReplyDeleteThe Lubavitcher rebbe never planned on becoming PM but [many of] his followers think he is/was/will be the mashiach.
Shy Guy
ReplyDeleteCan you imagine the Yetzer Harah!
"We're surrounded by shiv'im Ze'evim",
aggreed
"have completely incompetent leaders both in Torah and in chachmah, someone comes around and says let's follow the ways of the Avot and the messages of the Nevi'im and Gedolei Hatorah through the generations,"
I don't know what the Neviim would say about todays situation. Yeshayu and Yirmiyahu were very cautious about confronting the world powers of their day, I don't know whether they would have sanctioned the speech above
As the Gedolai Hatorah through the generations have different views regarding Yishuv Haaretz, Zionism, Mashiach, Geula, Mikdash, it is impossible for a person to be following them all.
Manhigut Yehudit is about alot of things following the Gedolai Hatorah through the generations" is not one of them, and I'm sure Moshe Feiglin would be the first to state that.
Moshe never really went to Yeshiva, doesn't seem to have any Rabbeim or Gedolim that he consults with, and marches to his own tune.
Rafi being PM per se has nothing to do with it. He wants to be PM in order to build the Mikdash, among other things.
ReplyDeleteIt is obvious that Feiglin's view of the Geula (whether or not you accept my point) is much more rationalist, and EY oriented than a Rebbe that refused to leave Brooklyn, and felt strongly (despite his right wing views) that the State of Israel had nothing to do with the geula, and its founding itself was a violation of the ג שבועות
its funny after all the 70 wolves "bnei-torah" do not give your full-throated support to someone who talks about the nation of israel returning to its jewish roots stabilizing its own land and fuffiling its destiny and its capability
ReplyDeleteyou make it sound like its a bad endeavor to be involved with strengthing the jewish people and their connection to jewish values is not optional its a must!
godol limud sheboh lidei maaseh
Hey All,
ReplyDeleteMoshe's first book was entitled, "Where There are No Men..." What is left unsaid is, "Then be a Man."
I know Moshe very well, and the only reason he is doing this is because NO ONE ELSE is doing it.
He gave up his normal life to "be a man".
Please don't condemn him for this.
He deserves to be lauded by all Jews for this.
Sounds like Mul Ha'Einaim is saying that each Jew is obligated to prevent himself from being the moschiach. Sort of like saying Jews are required to stay in galut..... A fullproof philosophy for perpetuating galut.
ReplyDeleteLooking back on the posts on this thread is like reviewing the symptoms of a chronically ill patient.
ReplyDeleteOnly the illness is spiritual.
Anon 4:04, Shy Guy,
ReplyDeleteIf Moshe Feiglin is elected Prime Minister and attempts to build the Beis HaMikdash, I will personally go to the Einam where the quarries are to shlep the stones.
What did I say to attack him or that the galut should be perpetuated