I don't understand what they are protesting in Iran. The choices of presidential candidates, fro the little I have read on the subject, are all pretty lousy. None of them are pro-democracy, and they are each just bad forms of dictatorial governments.
The real change would be to overthrow the ayatollah and make the Iranian government more pro-western, democratic, etc.
In Twitter, people have been showing their support with the Iranian protesters by changing the color of their avatars to be green.
I do not support the Iranian protesters.
I am not against them, but I do not support them. I think they are naive if they are protesting to get rid of Ahmadinejad just to bring in another terrorist dictator.
I do not support the murder of protesters, or the neglect, or worse, of human rights, but I do not support the protesters.
When is the last time they have supported Israel in our times of distress? Have we heard words of comfort and support from Iranians? Must we act as though we are their friends, when they are not ours?
At best, I support chaos. I am even a big fan of chaos. Chaos makes for interesting history. Any support and solidarity I have for the protesters is really just support for chaos. I enjoy seeing chaos wreak havoc like that on an unfriendly country. I support the protests, because it disrupts the normal activities of a hostile country. I support the protests because it diverts world attention, a bit, from putting unfair pressures on Israel while they look at what is going on in Iran. I support Iranian protests because it is the enemy fighting with the enemy, rather than the enemy fighting with us.
The only problem with this is what Menachem Begin said - that goyim kill goyim, and the jews get the blame (said in reference to the murders in Sabra and Shatilla during the Lebanon War). At the end of the day we will end up losing no matter who wins in Iran.
My avatar is not green. Maybe when I see some Iranian avatars turn white and blue, I'll consider changing my avatar to green.
Thanks for writing this. I am also bothered by the green avatars. I might not say it exactly as you did, but good for you for saying so.
ReplyDeletethanks
ReplyDeletethat was the single most stupid thing i have ever read. Why should the people in the middle-east show any support to Israel, when your soldiers are killing innocent people every day? Women, children, bombing schools, hospitals, there no stopping your "soldiers".
ReplyDeleteand why should anyone show support for Iran when all they want to do, including Mousavi, is build nuclear bombs to wipe Israel off the map with?
ReplyDeleteWhy must you be supported in order to support? Iran and America do not get along but a lot of Americans are supporting them right now, because it's not about America, it's about Iran. It's not about Israel, it's about Iran. Regime disagreement or not, when wrong is done those who have the ability to stand up should stand up and Iran was wronged. Simple as that, no need to bring other politics into this, it's not about our countries. It's about theirs.
ReplyDeletewhy should I support people who want to kill me? I didn't see them showing similar sentiments during our dark days of bus bombings.
ReplyDeleteI don't like to see them being killed, and human rights should be preserved, but I don't feel bad for them and I don't support them. Maybe if they were trying to overthrow the government and the ayatollah, but just to overthrow ahmadinejad to put in another bum who wants to kill us, I see it as a waste fo time.
and, btw, if I hear from iranians that I am wrong, and they are against Pali terror against Israelis, and the alternative candidate is not looking to destroy Israel, I will be open to changing my mind on this.
ReplyDeleteGees if Americans felt this way we wouldn't help anyone, no one likes us and many want to bomb us into oblivion.
ReplyDeleteThose are selfish thoughts.
could be, but the truth is Barak Obama said something very similar yesterday when he said he is watching carefully but will not intervene as he sees little difference between Ahmadinejad and Moussavi.
ReplyDeleteRafi, you didn't answer AvramG correctly. You should have said:
ReplyDeleteYours, AvramG, is the single most stupid post to have ever hit this blog. Why should we pay attention to your filthy, stinking, lying words, when the Arabs surrounding us have called for our extinction and emblazened it in their national charters. Men, women, children, old and young, bombing schools, hospitals, restaurants, buses, universities. Thank G-d we've tentatively been able to stop your terrorist Islamo-Nazi butcher friends through barriers, checkposts and succesful intelligence and military operations. Expect more of the same to come until you pals (so to speak) raise their white but soiled underwear in total surrender.
Rafi, I think you've read this wrong. I don't think the Iranian people are our enemies. The Iranian regime is a terrible enemy, and they've used us and the USA as their external enemies to divert their subjects' attention away from their own repression in order to preserve their own fear society. But if you look at what individuals in Iran are saying when they're not afraid of recriminations from their government - I don't think they're any more our enemies than, say, the people of France.
ReplyDeleteI am personally in contact with one Iranian computer programmer, who was quite happy to discover that I was from Israel - he even thanked me on Israel's behalf for producing the Intel microchips!
It is in our interest for the Iranian people to attain true freedom. If they became a true democracy, it wouldn't matter if they got a nuclear bomb - democracies do not go to war against other democracies. I'm also not going "green"; like you I don't think Moussavi is any better than Ahmadi. I want to see a full revolution, and just for that reason, I support the Iranian people and pray that their revolution succeeds.
Shaul - I do nto doubt that there are Iranians who are good people. i do nto doubt that there are individual iranians who have nothing against israel. I do not doubt that there are individual Iranians who could care less and are not interested in what happens here. I do not doubt any of what you say, on an individual level. At the Iranian society level you are wrong. Unless I see it form the Iranians themselves, then I will be wrong.
ReplyDeleteBut they are not looking to become a true democracy. They are looking to replace Ahmadinejad with another guy who will also be controlled by the Ayatollah. So why should I support that.
Again - this does not mean I want to see people killed or their human rights trampled. But why should I show solidarity?
Did they show solidarity with the residents of Gush Katif when their human rights were being trampled as they were thrown out of their homes and cities? Did they show solidarity when Israelis were killed in bus bombs or in cafes?
Alright Shy Guy, I don't think you get what I mean.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all I am not an Arab or a muslim for that matter. I just think it is a stupid and cold article. We are talking about people and not govermants. I get just as sad when I hear news that Israeli civilians have been hurt/injured/killed as if it was any other civilians.
Here in europe we see news about soldiers killing people at the border. Isolating people without food, water or electricity...
Rafi - how could they possibly show solidarity with us, even if they felt it? They are living in a fear society! They can't even protest their own government!
ReplyDeleteIf they have a negative perception of Israel, that's just because they, like our well-meaning but ignorant friend AvramG in Europe, are being fed a steady stream of antisemitic, anti-Zionist propaganda, with no counterbalance. So how can you blame them for having negative attitudes, when they have no access to alternative viewpoints? If they knew the truth, they would be on our side.
Note the quotation from today's JPost, from one of the protestors:
Quote:
..."my brother had his ribs beaten in by those Palestinian animals. Taking our people's money is not enough, they are thirsty for our blood too."
It was ironic, this man said, that the victorious Ahmadinejad "tells us to pray for the young Palestinians, suffering at the hands of Israel." His hope, he added, was that Israel would "come to its senses" and ruthlessly deal with the Palestinians.
Obama is beinbg cautious not because he doesn't like the regime, but because if America throws their support in for the protestors, it could actually hurt their cause instead of help. The USA throwing support into any ring is dangerous when it comes to the world because they do not like us and think we want to control everything. Say we want to help the protestors? Obviously that means it's American backed and the Americans are trying to take over again. It's touchy for us, that is why Obama pauses.
ReplyDeleteHowever just because our government pauses, doesn't mean we do.
It's one step at a time. The person they want in office is a Reform party member, and with this show of solidarity to the world, Iran may now be more open to listening. We are showing them we care and, instead of talking at them and telling them what to do, we're listening to them. This can open many doors because that simple guesture is very important.
You are closing your ears because they aren't doing it exactly the way you want to, without seeing the possibility that can come from showing them we are all unified in their plight.
I mean there's a lot of hate speech going on in your comments. Hate begets hate and all.
Shaul - hear you and that is something to consider.
ReplyDeleteRH - Obama did not just not give them support. he pretty much equated the guy they are supporting with ahmadinejad and said there is no reason to support this guy, as he is the same.
I actually think it's worse if the protesters win and install their "Reform" candidate. I therefore have also been puzzled by the blogospheric reaction. All along, it's been a concern that they'd vote out Ahmadijaned, the public face would be new and the world and obama would declare a new beginning with Iran even as they continued the same policies wrt nuclear weapons. I think it's better to have ahmadijaned win and probably even better that the perception is that it was a rigged election, since that puts the world on notice about Iran with no excuses about reform that I think would not be more than a cosmetic change in actuality. Now that they are protesting the result, if the protesters succeed, it will be touted as even greater progress as the second to last commenter (If I understood the comment correctly) cast it. I wish the people of Iran well, but wishing them well doesn't mean that I wish they exchange one evil for another and if ahmadijaned stays, at least there will not be the excuse that we can't tell the character of the regime or are misled about their ruthlessness and intentions. Whereas otherwise, we will be told there's wonderful progress when I doubt a change in presidents would mean anything substantive
ReplyDeleteAnon 16:48 - agreed, and that's pretty much what I said here in my original response to the Iranian crisis...
ReplyDeleteIn summary, the best possible outcome is a total overthrow of the Iranian regime; next best is exactly what we have now. Worst would be for Moussavi to become Prez and allow everyone to pretend that he's a "reformer" (as they are already doing).
Rafi not G.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I can see it, anything bad that happens to the regime in Iran is good news for the jews. It is true that Mousavi also wants to nuke us but not all the protesters are really Mousavi supporters. There are democrats, communists and anarchists there as well. Instability and revolution in Iran is good for us, so I'm with the protesters, whoever they are.
Rafi (not G):
ReplyDeleteIn other words, "my enemy's enemy is my friend".
;)
shaul: I agree with your post but am concerned that supporting the protesters will lead to your possibility:
ReplyDelete"They will give in to pressure and either annul the election results or institute some kind of power sharing between the candidates. There will also have to be some kind of regime reform to accompany that if they want the people to calm down. Yet another crack in the fear society's brittle fortifications."
which I fear could be the worst of all worlds, apparent reform while Iran continues the same policies
Overthrowing the regime would be incredible, another tianmaman square a tragedy for iranians but at least make the nature of the regime clear - but I dont think it would make much of a difference to those who want to pretend though one never knows. My main worry is illusory reform. But I do wish them well and the protesters are courageous. I think it's unlikely, but would that they succeed in overthrowing the regime.
Read Sharansky's book and see how close the Iranian regime is to collapsing. The only thing that can save them is if the West steps in to prop them up in the name of detente and regional stability. That would be the worst possible outcome.
ReplyDeleteI can't figure out why the iranians aren't allowing the reform figurehead to take power, something must be going on - maybe domestically. maybe they really are afraid of collapsing or needing to grant too many concessions, one can only hope and pray. or maybe they owe someone a favor and keeping ahmadajined in power has no larger meaning, who knows? I get the feeling no one really knows what's going on there in Iran, maybe even less than they knew about what Sadaam was up to.
ReplyDeleteTop Mossad, Israeli Officials Echo Schlussel: Stop Siding With Mousavi (Who is Worse); Iranian Faux-Uprising is Stupid, Pointless
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletechanged my mind. gotta support them. this has a life of its own.
ReplyDeleteone thing bothered me about this post - i dont know that iranians are antiisrael any more than that they are really antiamerican. theyre persian not arab, why should they care about the palestinians?the regime has an interest in demonstrating that shia islam can do what sunnis did not wrt israel and this makes their version of islam look good, but the palestinian conflict is IMO more ethnic/arab than islamic (islam is a pretext) and so why should iranians care?Caroline glick says the israeli radio in iran gets a million listeners and that they are not antiisrael. maybe more important i read that palestinians are down in iran (one iranian was saying davka palestinian, not hezbollah/lebanese) and doing crowd control, beating iranians, speaking arabic....thats not goingto make them popular!Guy i read quoted was complaining of all the money the regime sends them and that israel should crack down on them...dont know how widespread that is but i wouldnt take for granted that prowestern iranians are antiisrael. they are nationalistic but that neednt translate into agreeing with the regime on israel just as it doesnt on the us.
anon - I was also reconsidering my position.. the protests have taken on a life of their own and if it keep sup, it looks like there is a good chance it will not just be to replace ahamdinejad with a different idiot, but will be a complete overthrow and might get rid of the ayatollahs. A lot needs to happen, but it is not far fetched.
ReplyDeleteThat is something I could support.
I'm starting to feel like a prophet... didn't I call this a week or two ago? :)
ReplyDeleteMy feeling is getting stronger that this really is a revolution, because unless the regime carries out a Tiananmen Square style massacre, the people have shown that they have tasted freedom, and they're going going to settle for anything less than total regime change.
Shaul - you and Shari Arrison! :-)
ReplyDeleteI completely agree, but one question - where and when did they taste freedom? nothing changed except they started protesting the way it has been.
OMG - Shimon Peres has come out supporting the demonstrators!
ReplyDeleteI never thought I would see the day when I would congratulate Peres on a courageous and correct political move!
Shehecheyanu v'kiy'manu...!
Rafi - they tasted freedom just by virtue of having the right to elect the least distasteful of all the pre-approved candidates... and then they had to suffer the indignity of having even that tiny pleasure cheated out of them.
ReplyDeleteNow they are hopping mad.
are elections in iran new? Did they not have elections in the previous 30 years since the Ayatollahs took over?
ReplyDeleteElections in Iran were held for the first time in 2004.
ReplyDeleteLooks like that was the initial crack in the wall of the fear society... like glasnost in the USSR.