According to this sign, placed around RBS B, the Eida rav, Rav Rosenberger, has found a solution to the increasing levels of break-ins taking place on shabbos in the neighborhood.
They have decided to hire a security company to patrol the area on Friday night. They will use a goy to do the patrols who will be paid b'havlaa - i.e. not directly paid for his work on shabbos, but for work done during the week that will also include the Friday night patrols.
Notice that the Eida has found it acceptable to use a goy to do melacha on shabbos when it is in their interests, yet when it was proposed in the negotiations with Intel in an effort to minimize, or stop, chillul shabbos, the Eida rejected it and considered such a solution nto acceptable.
What are the Eida's true intentions and goals?
to be fair, there is an element of pikuach nefesh here, as the ganovim are arabs and wlaking around inside people's apartments. (is that used as a basis for the heter from rosenbooger?)
ReplyDeletebut this is ridiculous. eida people use 'shabbos goys' all the time when they forget to turn off a light or whatever.
as if anyone needed proof the eida do not give a hoot about Shabbos. only about making a stink. it happens to be that they are externally religous so they make religious stinks.
of course when they need to police like now in RBS B - they seem to have shot thwmselves in the foot as it is kin da embarassing to ask someone you just called a nazi to help save your life.
Rafi - I am not sure how you are comparing the use of goyim on shabbos for commercial gain (Intel) with the use of goyim for pikuach nefesh purposes (RBS B)? Even if you strongly disagree with what is going in Jerusalem, this comparison is unhelpful.
ReplyDeleteWhen are you going to post about the arnona discount issue that was mentioned in last week's chadash?
Your astute friend.
anon - actually according to Jameel's detailed article on what was going on in Intel the Intel plant was also not actually working. they simply have to leave the ovens on and have a crew on site making sure the building does not explode if the ovens would overheat. So that too is preventing pikuach nefesh.
ReplyDeleteDoes the eda allow using a Shabbos goy for stone throwing?
ReplyDeleteRafi,
ReplyDeleteRe-read Jameel's article.
There is no argument about the work that has been conducted until now at Intel. The argument is apparently about the work they do intend to carry out at Intel (which is for commercial purposes and not for PN).
When will you post about arnona in BS?
Astute
I think the main point is the following. If another group in Bet Shemesh would have done such a thing -- whether Dati Leumi rabbanim or mainstream charedi ones -- the Edah would have protested the chillul and zilzul Shabbos. But when Rebbetzin Rottenberg's office gets robbed (her husband is the mafia don of the kanoim), then everything is allowed.
ReplyDeleteDo you really not see a difference between commercial use of goyim, in Yerushalayim, in which if you allow this company to use goyim, others will follow suit, and that will open up Yerushalyim as a commercial center on Shabbos, to a heter of using a goy? Do you not see a difference in the sanctity of Yerushalyim, and the delicate balance of chareidim DL and chilonim in the city, in which any change of status quo makes an explosion literally heard around the world, to a personal private use of a goy?
ReplyDeleteIs there some hekesh of goy goy thats similar? You need to think a little deeper here. Dont the DL MO guys usually claim that the chareidim dont know how to think and they just follow blindly, while the MO DL are original thinkers who dont accept anything anyone says without full analyzation? Or do you only analyze what suits you, and play dumb when it suits you?
I also would like to hear a rebuttal of comments against the Chareidim for relying on, and sucking up the tax money of the chilonim. For being parasites and sucking the lift sustenance out of the chilonim in recognition of the claim of the iriyahs representative that about 70% of the cities arnona discounts are from NON chareidim. This is astounding because the chareidim make up over 40% of the population - based on votes, which doesnt count TOV which consider themseles half chareidi, and doesnt coutn the Yerushalmim who dont vote.
ReplyDeleteOr do you just disregard it because it was written in what you call the local chareidi rag, so it must be a lie?
In any case, I think a post would be apropo
The article in the Chadash proves the point that you can make numbers say anything that you want.
ReplyDeleteThere are specific Arnona discounts for Charedim which non-Charedim simply cannot take. The reverse does not apply. Just about every other discount applies to anyone who meets the criteria. What the Chadash did is count up the number of exemptions that are specifically Charedi and say that is the number for Charedim. What they failed to say is that Charedim take other discounts as well. Many Charedim may not qualify for the Avrech discount but may qualify for a regular poverty discount. Or, disabled people get a discount. There are most definitely disabled Charedim who get this discount as well. Therefore the 26.9% number that was bandied about is a minimum number, at leats 26.9% of teh discounts are Charedim, however, it doesn't really tell us how many Charedim are actually getting discounts.
The other interesting point is that the 70% Avrech exemption is by far the biggest over 1000 people.
I am working on a post. I am not great with numbers, so dont expect a refutation of the numbers - but I will give you my thoughts
ReplyDelete"There are specific Arnona discounts for Charedim which non-Charedim simply cannot take".
ReplyDelete"The other interesting point is that the 70% Avrech exemption is by far the biggest over 1000 people."
These quotes are simply not true. It would be illegal for any municipality to favor one sector of the population in the manner suggested. Arnona discounts are based purely on income. Avrechim are not entitled to bigger exemptions than other poor people.
I have no problem with somebody refuting the figures with fact [I would be surprised if they presented a wholly accurate picture], but why make statements which are simply false.
If the figures are true however, there will be a number of people (including my friend Rafi G) who will be eating humble pie!
Astute [who also happens to be a lawyer, who has assisted with exemptions in BS]
eat humble pie for what? did I make any claim that haredim are parasites?
ReplyDeleteI dont know what you are talking about.
"What are the Eida's true intentions and goals?"
ReplyDeletethe answer is - power, power, power, power, power, and a little bit more power
for the rest of you critics, grow some balls and disagree using your names. This isn't an inflammatory website looking to always cause fights. this is a personal blog offering personal opinions and open to discussion. If you have what to say, agree or disagree, then grow a pair and discuss like rational human beings and use your name. otherwise, you don't sound like a tough guy.
"These quotes are simply not true. It would be illegal for any municipality to favor one sector of the population in the manner suggested. Arnona discounts are based purely on income. Avrechim are not entitled to bigger exemptions than other poor people."
ReplyDeleteReally? So why did the Chadash make a table that specifically said 70% Avrech. There is no special discount for some whose Toraso U'mnuso?
I think there is such a category, but not everybody qualifies for it. There are limitations. amount of stipend, other income (if wife works, for example), among other things.
ReplyDeleteI might be wrong - it has been many years since this applied to me, so things could have changed...
re non-Jewish security on Shabbat, I wonder about the background of this past week's Chadash article about a rash of "Palestinian" break-ins around the area. My 10-year-old was quite spooked as was a neighbor's daughter.
ReplyDeleteIs it about a new, more severe kind of crime going on (unfortunately break-ins by Arabs aren't new around here) - or is it an attempt to create more hysteria to help ease acceptance of non-Jewish security forces?