1) How are people still alive if they have been buried for 10 days? No food. No water. I am amazed, and am looking for an explanation. Truth is, I was looking for an explanation last week when survivors were found on day 6/7. This is truly miraculous!
2) Was this done on shabbos? If so, what is the heter to save goyim on shabbos? Who said there would be "evah" - if everyone else gave up?
dunno. I was wondering thr same thing. Plud, I was wondering what the original hetter was as well - if most countries did not send help, why should there be any aiva for Israel not sending help?
of course it is moot as the secular state of Israel does not look for a hetter for these things but does what it feels is necessary.
Just checked the You-Tube site, it happened on Friday.
Once the crew is there, it's eiva not to keep up on Shabbos for sure.
I wonder whether a globally-minded gadol would say Israel shouldn't bother with the goyim - somehow I doubt it.
Time magazine has a survivor found the next day on Shabbos (they didn't highlight the Israeli rescue the day before) - that fellow was sipping from a can of soda he found in the dark near him.
Obviously, since they found a survivor the next day (I believe Greek and US teams, and not Israeli, were involved), your assertion that everyone else has given up is not correct.
sure, not everyone has pulled out. I dont know if anyone has pulled out. The intensity of the search seems to be way down though as they figure survivors are getting less and less likely. Anyway, the Israelis were working at a much higher level all along than all the other teams anyway. But no, they are not the only people left in haiti helping out
As for the heter you're wondering about, you might look at Rav Nahum Eliezer Rabinowitz's M'lumadei Milhama. T'shuvah mem gimmel in the section on m'lachot Shabbat. There are certainly others who take the position this is a l'hatchila thing, but his t'shuvah is the one I recall most quickly since the topic has been current.
No doubt the more well known positions are those of the Irgrot Moshe or the Tzitz Eliezer (with nuanced differences between them, to be sure) who would require construing eivah in some way. Rav Rabinowitz relates to that a bit at the end, when talking about treating terrorists, for instance. When we went into Levanon in '82 that was an issue that really bothered some of us.
Unfortunately, some of the recent internet discussion on this topic has been by people with little sense of responsibility (or humility) in halachic matters; or just a vague general knowledge that they think enough to paskin; or their own sense of morality (they're entitled, to be sure) that they dress up with the name 'halacha'. Sometimes they cite rabbanim whose writing they haven't actually learned, nor have they spoken with them.
"of course it is moot as the secular state of Israel does not look for a hetter for these things but does what it feels is necessary."
Rafi, I don't think that is strictly true. I certainly know of incidents in the past where the Rav Tzvai Rashi was consulted on such things. Not necessarily 'obeyed', but at least consulted.
And certainly you don't want to tell me that the Zaka team dared go in the field on Shabbat without some previous halachic guidelines having been established?
Mordechai - not to worry. I know all halachic discussion here is not in depth nor really halachic. Just talk. :-)
truth is I realized after I wrote it that it is not really true. While the secular state might not ask such things, often the religious parties would keep the state in check on such things (though I dont know that any religious party would speak out to say not to save the haitians in this type of a situation because it is against halacha..)
One of our neighbors is a Rav Tzvai, in the kollel (writing teshuvot etc.) and he mentioned some questions coming from the Rav Tzvai that accompanied the rescue squad to Haiti.
sorry! we didn't talk about the specific psakim that were discussed, it was tangential to the actual topic at the Shabbos table. but my point was that the army often sends Rabbinic guidance with a unit, and the often do just that.
with a hospital to care for him upon arrival
ReplyDeletethey must have pulled him out on Shabbat?
amazing.
1) How are people still alive if they have been buried for 10 days? No food. No water. I am amazed, and am looking for an explanation. Truth is, I was looking for an explanation last week when survivors were found on day 6/7. This is truly miraculous!
ReplyDelete2) Was this done on shabbos? If so, what is the heter to save goyim on shabbos? Who said there would be "evah" - if everyone else gave up?
dunno. I was wondering thr same thing. Plud, I was wondering what the original hetter was as well - if most countries did not send help, why should there be any aiva for Israel not sending help?
ReplyDeleteof course it is moot as the secular state of Israel does not look for a hetter for these things but does what it feels is necessary.
Just checked the You-Tube site, it happened on Friday.
ReplyDeleteOnce the crew is there, it's eiva not to keep up on Shabbos for sure.
I wonder whether a globally-minded gadol would say Israel shouldn't bother with the goyim - somehow I doubt it.
Time magazine has a survivor found the next day on Shabbos (they didn't highlight the Israeli rescue the day before) - that fellow was sipping from a can of soda he found in the dark near him.
Rafi,
ReplyDeleteObviously, since they found a survivor the next day (I believe Greek and US teams, and not Israeli, were involved), your assertion that everyone else has given up is not correct.
sure, not everyone has pulled out. I dont know if anyone has pulled out. The intensity of the search seems to be way down though as they figure survivors are getting less and less likely.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the Israelis were working at a much higher level all along than all the other teams anyway. But no, they are not the only people left in haiti helping out
Heh heh Time Mag said it was the French. Our favorite.
ReplyDeleteAs for the heter you're wondering about, you might look at Rav Nahum Eliezer Rabinowitz's M'lumadei Milhama. T'shuvah mem gimmel in the section on m'lachot Shabbat. There are certainly others who take the position this is a l'hatchila thing, but his t'shuvah is the one I recall most quickly since the topic has been current.
ReplyDeleteNo doubt the more well known positions are those of the Irgrot Moshe or the Tzitz Eliezer (with nuanced differences between them, to be sure) who would require construing eivah in some way. Rav Rabinowitz relates to that a bit at the end, when talking about treating terrorists, for instance. When we went into Levanon in '82 that was an issue that really bothered some of us.
Unfortunately, some of the recent internet discussion on this topic has been by people with little sense of responsibility (or humility) in halachic matters; or just a vague general knowledge that they think enough to paskin; or their own sense of morality (they're entitled, to be sure) that they dress up with the name 'halacha'. Sometimes they cite rabbanim whose writing they haven't actually learned, nor have they spoken with them.
"of course it is moot as the secular state of Israel does not look for a hetter for these things but does what it feels is necessary."
ReplyDeleteRafi, I don't think that is strictly true. I certainly know of incidents in the past where the Rav Tzvai Rashi was consulted on such things. Not necessarily 'obeyed', but at least consulted.
And certainly you don't want to tell me that the Zaka team dared go in the field on Shabbat without some previous halachic guidelines having been established?
BTW, I did NOT mean my above comment about irresponsible halachic discussion to relate to anything here.
ReplyDeleteMordechai - not to worry. I know all halachic discussion here is not in depth nor really halachic. Just talk. :-)
ReplyDeletetruth is I realized after I wrote it that it is not really true. While the secular state might not ask such things, often the religious parties would keep the state in check on such things (though I dont know that any religious party would speak out to say not to save the haitians in this type of a situation because it is against halacha..)
One of our neighbors is a Rav Tzvai, in the kollel (writing teshuvot etc.) and he mentioned some questions coming from the Rav Tzvai that accompanied the rescue squad to Haiti.
ReplyDeletenu? care to share?
ReplyDeletesorry! we didn't talk about the specific psakim that were discussed, it was tangential to the actual topic at the Shabbos table. but my point was that the army often sends Rabbinic guidance with a unit, and the often do just that.
ReplyDelete