Here is an audio clip from a radio show 2 years ago with a secular Israeli journalist explaining why the Haredim not standing on Yom HaZikaron and commemorating the day the way the secular israelis would want them to is not a problem, and that it does not mean the Haredim reject the State or the army or do not respect the fallen soldiers. They just have a different way of commemorating. The most direct point is when he asks the interviewer if a Haredi party came to power and took over and changed the rules - if they made the rule that to commemorate the soldiers everyone has to go to shul and say kaddish at 11am - everyone - and the interviewer says no way, that would not be acceptable. Well worth a listen, just to remind you that just because someone does not do like you, does not mean he rejects you are demeans you.
that's right,
ReplyDeletethe chareidin show their respect for the fallen soldiers in their own way.
all chareidi yeshivas have a special program (on an appropriate day of course) of saying tehilim and learning for the soldiers that gave their lives, and the rosh yeshiva says a public kaddish in their memory...
oh, or not?
(Rafi not G)
ReplyDeleteThis is a false comparison. They can say Tehillim (a "Jewish" thing to do, which is incidentally a quite widespread practice) or say an El Malei Rahamim like he suggests. No-one decrees exactly what they do when the siren goes off. The only requirement is that they do something respectful at that time. This is all just a smokescreen to hide the real issues.
I think that there is something deeper here. They refuse to jump when the Zionist State says "jump". Those who aren't standing commemorate the Shoah on their day, not everyone else's and they claim (but like Y, I haven't yet seen proof that this happens) to do the same for Yom HaZikaron.
This is Prisha MiDarkei Tzibbur. Unless of course you reckon your minority group to be the Tzibbur and everyone else to to be Minim, Kofrim or just plain not Jewish.
If this was true, it would certainly be appropriate, and I don't think that any of the secular or RZ would have any problems with the Haredi community paying their respects in their own way.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is, that it doesn't happen - they don't pay their respects in their own way, and not only that, they don't respect the manner in which everyone else does pay their respects.
Well I learn in the oldest Yeshiva in Israel, Yeshivat Beit El(Rashi St, which was moved there after the destruction of the Rova).
ReplyDeleteNo we don't stand at 11am. However that is not to say that we do not commemorate Yom HaZikaron. For that entire week each of our aharonim are draped in parochtim commemorating the fallen soldiers of the IDF, and at each of the Torah services that week our Rosh Yeshiva says Mi Sheberakh for the elevation of their souls. Our learning that day is dedicated to those who gave their lives that we may live a free Jews within the borders of Eretz Yisrael.
As Beit El was the father of all Kabbalistic Yeshivot, and as I have been around to many of the most prominent of the Sephardi ones(Nahar Shalom, Ahavat Shalom, Tzedek V'Shalom, Chaim V'Shalom, Beit El Chadash[Rov Yehudi], and a couple of others that I know I am forgetting) I know that this is done universally in Kabbalistic Yeshivot. If commemorating them the same as we do our niftar Roshei Yeshivot(many of whom, such as the RaShaSh were tzadikim gemurim) is not as respectful as simply standing for a couple of minutes while a siren makes noise... I don't know what to tell you.
To Rafi(not G) yes we do commemorate Yom HaShoa on a different day... Tisha B'Av(but that is a different thread).
I find it interesting how some Anglo charedim here in RBS react to Yom HaTzmaut.
ReplyDeleteThey'll go to the tekes although there is music and celebration (it is still sefira) yet would never say Hallel (even bli brocha), display a flag or sing Hatikva.
Do their rabbonim sanction this? Do they allow their principles to be outweighed by some music and fireworks?
If you dont believe in a secular state or other aspects of dat-Leumi life then please be consistant.
If you do share our feelings about the medina and the right to celebrate then you should stop enpowering your rabbonim who would like to ship us all away.
there is the sense that chareidi policy is made to counter the state: the state says stand, we will not. etc.
ReplyDeleteI take issue with the refusal of some Charedim to stand for the state.
ReplyDeleteThey stand in line to make sure that they receive their arnona discount.
They stand to make certain that the kitzvat yeladim was deposited into their account.
They stand in line at the Kupat Cholim, heavily subsidized by the gov't.
They stand up during davening in shuls that have been subsidized by the "state".
They stand at the Lishkas Gayus to make certain that they get a pitur from the army.
So those who criticize are incorrect...many Charedim do stand for the State.
(Rafi not G)
ReplyDeleteMekubal, first of all, I am not necessarily talking about you and your yeshiva. There are many Haredi people who honor Yom HaShoah and Yom HaZikaron. The issue is with those who refuse to accept either.
However, it is irrelevant what things you do to commemorate the dead if you make a point of not doing the one thing that everyone else is doing. Do it in your own way, but do it. What would be so wrong to say Tehillim or to pray for both the souls of the fallen and the lives of the living together with all of Am Yisrael at this precise minute? Do you not think that the combined power of your prayer together with all the millions of other people praying at precisely this moment could not in fact be more powerful? Why the insistence on being different and knowing better?
because we are different, and we do know better.
ReplyDeleteWe are upholders of the Torah, and therefore we are better. by definition. We don't do things just because every other moron is doing it. We do things because they are supposed to be done, and we do not do things because they are not supposed to be done.
Was that sarcasm or do you really believe that?
ReplyDeleteI did not mean the term "moron" specifically, as if to say anyone but "Charedim" or "religious people" are morons. That was just a figure of speech.
ReplyDeleteBesides that, I was serious. We are better because we follow a moral code, along with set rules of behavior, set down by God.
Perhaps we falter at times, some more than others, but overall we are better, and if someone feels they are not, they might need to work on their Avodas Hashem and their middos to get to that point.
Yes, if you follow God's code of conduct you will be better than people who do not.
Good you redefined "moron". I was just about to use it myself.
ReplyDeleteI am happy to see you agree with the rest of my statement
ReplyDeleteIt seems that Yanky really lacks conviction that his way is the right way...
ReplyDeleteRafi not G
ReplyDeleteWhen you make a blanket statement about what does or does not go on in Haredi Yeshivot, you are talking about me, as I am Haredi. That is the problem with bigotry of any kind, its a matter of making blanket statements that usually do not apply to all or even the majority. Yes when you refer to another people as a "they" that is bigotry.
Moving on from that, we do not make a point of not doing something, we simply do not make a point of doing something excessive that we wouldn't do for anyone else. The omer is already in general a time of mourning for those that have given their lives fighting for the freedom of Jews. 580,000 perished in three years fighting the Romans in the Second Jewish revolt. Where is their special day or does their sacrifice not count?
Throughout the history of our people millions have died fighting for Jews, Judaism and Torah. I have the utmost respect for IDF soldiers and their sacrifice, and fully expect my own children to be a part of that, no matter how much it bucks the system. Our sages instituted times and seasons to remember our fallen, be it those who perished in the Holocaust, the Inquisitions, the Pogroms, the Exiles, or in any generation when evil men arose to destroy us. I fail to see how the sacrifice of the IDF soldiers is so much superior to that of all those that have gone before, that it deserves its own day. That is what this does, by saying that I need to do something, that I don't do for the ten martyrs, that I don't do for all of those who have gone before, that is saying that they are in some way superior. If you can tell me how the sacrifice of the 19663 people who have died either fighting or as the result of Israels wars and Arabic terrorist attacks is somehow superior to that of the millions that have gone before, then I will consider your point. Otherwise when put into a historical perspective, what you are saying demeans the sacrifice that others have made.
Every one made sacrifices to re-establish an independent Jewish homeland. That homeland may not be as ideal from a Jewish standpoint as haredi Jews want. Even they understand it is the only one the Jewish people have. And with the waning of secular Zionist ideology, Judaism becomes even more important to Israel's future. Some day, Zionism will cease to matter in Israel but it will remain the Jewish State. G-d will see to it.
ReplyDeleteIf it were JUST the refusal to stand for the tzfira then I could understand and wouldn't have a big problem with it. But it is a lot more than that (just echoing previous comments, of course).
ReplyDeleteMark
Mekubal - I hate to break it to you, but a sefardi, especially a sefardi kabbalah yeshiva is not Haredi. At least not the kind of Haredi that's being discussed here.
ReplyDeleteOf course, feel free to call yourself whatever you want.
Patrice means a Hardal. A Religious Zionist who dresses like a Haredi but is still a Zionist. Think the HaRav and his son Zvi Yehuda Kook.
ReplyDeletePatrice and NormanF,
ReplyDeleteWhile Beit E-l Hadash(Rova Yehudi) fits the Hardal description, the other Yeshivot definitely fall within the Haredi spectrum. Personally if Rav Eliyashiv and Rav Shternbuch each considers a particular Yeshiva to be a Hareidi Yeshiva(as they do Beit E-l, Nahar Shalom, Ahavat Shalom) I myself consider them to be Hareidi.
FYI, aside from Beit E-l Hadash, all of these Yeshivot reject Zionism outright.
Last I checked R' Ovadiah Yosef, and R' Shlomo Amar were considered to be Haredi(the Da'ati Leumi press labels them that way), so I would assume the Yeshivot that follow them(as opposed to R' Mordechai Eliyahu) are also Haredi.
I feel a little bad that you don't know the kind of yeshiva you're in, but you're completely mistaken with regard to ROY and RSA (and I'd bet regarding RYSE - but that's a separate matter).
ReplyDeleteROY has a teshuva where he rules that one should say hallel on YHA. We can talk about certain tendencies he has that can be defined as Haredi, or how he's portrayed by the media (extreme does not equal Haredi. well, not always), but for the purposes of this discussion there can be no doubt as to where he stands.
If you are referring to the Teshuva found in Yalkut Yosef, remember that that was written by his son R' Yitzchak Yosef(who is a Zionist) and not by his father.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't think that R' Eliyashiv and R' Shternbuch(AB"D of the Eidah) knows what is or isn't Haredi, then I am afraid that your desire to defame Haredim based on what you think all Haredim do or don't do, is overwhelming your reason.
I know exactly what kind of Yeshiva I am in. I know that people such as R' Morgenshtern and Belzer Rav are alumni. I know that the sons of several Admurim learn and pray there. But if you want to insist that it is not Haredi because that makes you feel better trashing Haredim for their perceived wrongs... feel free.
Mekubal-
ReplyDeletePlease point to one statement I made that "trashed" Haredim.
I'm not sure what your reference is to RYSE or RMS with regards to your yeshiva.
However, once RYSE has been brought up, I'd have to bet that he was one of the Rabbis referenced earlier who rejoiced at the formation of the State (though I don't remember if his name is listed on the famous proclamation of Rabbis which included RTPF and RSZA - he may have simply been too young to have been included in that group). Remember his former (Zionist) position, as well as his family relations including who married him...
Patrice,
ReplyDeleteThe term "Haredi" is not synomomous with "Anti-Zionist" or "Anti-Israel." Which seems to be the misconception that you and some others hear are laboring under. In fact it may well surprise you to find that a great many, while they reject many of the trappings of the State such as Yom HaZikaron or Yom HaShoah VGevurah, are very pro-Israel.
Rav Shternbuch is a perfect example. The Eida HaHaredit is typically considered to be an anti-Zionist, anti-Israel organization. Yet he considers himself to be pro-Israel bordering on Zionist. I asked him once why he doesn't publicize his views, his answer was, "Sometimes being a leader means knowing when to shut your mouth." That being said he is a supporter of the Shahar program in the IDF which gives Haredim jobs in the IDF, he encourages people to pay their taxes and have jobs. He encourages people to vote. He told me once that it was duty to vote. I asked him which party, fully expecting him to name a religious one. He answered that we needed to vote for whoever would do the best job, even if it was Meretz.
It may come as a surprise by Haredi is not a synonym for Neturei Karta. There is a rather large gulf between Da'ati Leumi Zionist and Neturei Karta Anti-Zionist/Israel that the vast majority of the Haredi world fills. While Neturei Karta makes up only a small percentage of the overal Haredi population.
If you mean to say that my Yeshiva and these Rabbis are not Neturei Karta, I will agree with you, if you say that they are not Haredi, them I am afraid that you don't know what Haredi is.