Tzedek-Tzedek asks an interesting question. Rav Moti Elon has been separated from society because had been accused of illegal sexual activities with students, abuse of authority and the like. He was sent into golus, so to speak, and banished from teaching.
Now, the police have closed all the open cases against him and they have decided he did nothing illegal.
The first stage of his return is that his supporters have created a website making his shiurim available to the larger public that might want to hear them. Tzedek-Tzedek's question is if such a person should be allowed to teach online.
First of all, I see nothing wrong with him teaching online. If anyone is disgusted by him, they do not need to download his shiurim. They can, instead, go to the plethora of other websites offering Torah shiurim and completely ignore Rav Elon.
Second, I actually see nothing wrong with him being allowed to return to the classroom and teach face to face. He was accused. he was removed. He was investigated. Now he was found innocent. There is no reason he should not be able to return and teach. He did nothing wrong.
That being said, what he did was not my cup of tea, and you can be sure I will not be attending his classes. Everybody else has the same option of deciding whether they are interested in listening to him or not. However, that should not be a reason to deny him the ability to form classes and teach as he used to.
The man was found innocent after going through the whole process. Are we still going to torture him? When does it end? When is a person allowed to get back to his life, if not after he is found to be innocent?
For a rav to have sexual relations with above-18-year-old male students (that's the allegation) is not just an issue of your cup of tea, Rafi.
ReplyDeleteThough the police (and Attorney General, who Takana asked at the time) do not view this as a Criminal case - it is surely highly inappropriate conduct for a rabbi.
I'm surprised at you Rafi. Just because the police can't criminally prosecute doesn't make the person innocent. How many of the 613 are criminal offenses?
ReplyDeletethat may be so, but how can you legally discriminate against him any further.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I didnt say the old yeshiva has to give him his job back. he can go look for a job teaching and whoever hires him, knowing his past, is fine. He should be allowed to teach. if his former students want him to teach them in private gatherings, as has been discussed, he should not be disallowed any longer from doing so.
Again, I didnt say the old yeshiva has to rehire him. Let him go look for a job. maybe he will only find a job in a yeshiva for homosexuals.
One more thing, if we attack yeshivas and rabbonim for avoiding the process and not going through the police and protecting the molestors, here is a case where it went through the police and he was now found innocent. Yet you still want him to be treated as if he was found guilty. So what is the point of going through the process if you are going to excommunicate him anyhow?
Rafi,
ReplyDeleteI am shocked at how you are completely missing the point.
The police only determined that he did nothing illegal. I don't think there is a legal problem in not hiring a rav, or for a private organization to suggest no hiring a rav, if he does not live up to a certain religious standard. How about a rosh yeshiva who lends money for interest or eats basar b'chalav?
The police may be good for cases where the alleged act is also illegal.
if he opens a yeshiva, parents will have to decide if they want him as the role model for their kids. if a yeshiva is approached to hire him, they will have to weigh whether they want to. I didnt say a yeshiva has to hire him, but if there is demand for him to teach, if a yeshiva wants to hire him, he has been cleared for it.
ReplyDeletedidnt he say anyway that all that was in his past and is no longer an issue?
ReplyDeleteif someone lent with interest and then does teshuva, does he not deserve a second chance? if you believe he did teshuva, that is... a yeshiva will have to make that determination
Only Takana banned him from teaching. That is there prerogative. There is nothing legally preventing a yeshiva from hiring him.
ReplyDeletewhoever thinks the Torah he has to offer is greater than his personal issues, is welcome to hire him. I would not want him as a role model for my kids, and I would not be interested in hearing his shiurim. But that doesnt mean there are other people who would see otherwise.
ReplyDeleteI am just saying that if you go through the proper process, at the end the outcome has to have made it worthwhile. if he is found innocent yet you pillage him anyway, what is to stop someone next time from not cooperating because he has nothing to gain anyway. He will say that even if he will be found innocent you will ban him, so why should he bother...
So take the Torah he offers online, but without the face-to-face learning. That's the best of all worlds.
ReplyDeletepersonally I am not interested in his Torah even on-line. But if others want more than that, and want the more personal rebbe relationship (pun intended), he should not necessarily be passuled from attaining employment.
ReplyDeleteRafi,
ReplyDeleteCriminal cases are not always what proves a person guilty. Just look around at Mondrowitz, Kolko etc.....They have been able to walk free. Does this mean they are innocent. Absolutely not. According to the Takana, Rav Elon has a problem. He cannot and should not have contact with male students in person.
He is innocent in the eyes of the law. But he is presenting himself as a fit representative of orthodox Judaism. Even liberal clergy reject the idea of extra-marital affairs or using one's pastoral and teaching role to solicit sexual relations.
ReplyDeleteThus 1. he is a raging, unrepentant hypocrite; 2. a liar. 3. someone who broke his pledges to takanah when they did him the favor of not publicly outing him. In return he undertook to remove himself from teaching. Obvioiusly he also undertook to stop sexually exploiting his students.
Yes, by law he can go on being a menuval. David Morris was not asking a legal question. He was asking an ethical question.
I viewed his video on his new site. He wasnt merely sharing texts. I was a video of him with older boys or younger men. He is using his landmark hugs and hand holding. Sorry. But I will bet that he will revert to form.
If I knew a young fellow vulnerable to manipulation by a charismatic guy, I would keep him a million miles away from Elon. If it was your son and you percieved him to have those vulnerabilities I'll bet you would keep him away if it was in your power.
So my question is: if you wouldn't trust him in that situation why are you endorsing him and promoting his access to other potential victims?
Rafi - I wanna know why "Tzedek Tzedek" doesn't show up on your blogroll.
ReplyDeletedidnt he say anyway that all that was in his past and is no longer an issue?
ReplyDeletewould be nice. unfortunately with sexual deviance studies show they often revert.
and there are just some behaviors that, no matter how sorry someone is afterward, they just aren't fit for religiously responsible roles ever again.
"menuval"
ReplyDeleteI think that's exactly how god describes it. how funny and how ironic that a sub group of a despised race has the shamelessness to publicly disparage and judge other different people.
Do you really think that next time they will only round up gays and leave the jews alone?
you're the menuval.
I think torture is a bad choice of word. How is it "torturing" him to protest his continuing in a profession where he acted like a hypocrite and manipulated people who came to him for counseling?
ReplyDeleteYou can be sure that in a few years, he will convince a younger generation that while he made mistakes, he won't make them again. But based on our community's experience, he'll do it again.
This is assuming that the students even find out about it, of course. No one likes to talk about these things.