A tragedy happened today in Bet Shemesh. A 9 year old child died in his sleep. When his parents found him in the morning, they called Hatzalah, who subsequently declared him to be dead. מן השמים ינוחמו.
As knowledge of the tragedy spread, the local askanim became concerned the police would come to take the body for an autopsy. Sure enough they did, and the troops rallied and came out to fight the police to prevent it.
The fights have increased in intensity with many police and civilians being injured, and now violence is spreading to Jerusalem as well.
The timing could not be worse, as if the timing of a tragedy could ever be good, because with all the hostility already in the air over the past 10 days or so, this is going to only add major fuel to the flames.
This morning on way from Shienfeld to Aleph I saw a dumpster on fire in the middle of HaYarden. The weird thing was that there was no hafganah around it. no NK guys looking for a fight - just the dumpster.
ReplyDeleteFYI- fights regarding autopsies is not specifically NK guys. It is Eidah guys usually (mostly, which might also include NK people, but is far more widespread than just NK.
ReplyDeleteanon said...
ReplyDeleteThis morning I davened at the shteibelach in RBS-B and a choosid asked me if I would like the zechus of driving 4 avreichim to cheftziba, because they are trying to take a body for autopsy.
I declined.
Here is what happened:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3885685,00.html
May 06, 2010 11:12 AM
Anonymous anon said...
The violence involved is unbelievable.
Maybe they are afraid that they'll find out why the child really died.
Maybe they love violence.
May 06, 2010 11:16 AM
Why do they have to make a balagan every time? Why cant they just release the body with out a hafgana? They know its coming. They know in the end they will have to relent. Why the constant insistance?
ReplyDeleteThey have hafganot every time becuase the place that does the autopsy does not treat the body properly. Somtimes its missing an arm or comes back all chopped up. How is this somthing that you dont understand?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous above me - can you prove that? The fact that I've never heard of that demonstrates it is probably rubbish. Do you think people would not make a huge noise if their dead relative came back from an autopsy minus some body parts?
ReplyDeleteSadly the anti-autopsy guys do have some history on their side. In the first few decades of the State there were many autopsies done not for the sake of learning how the person died but just because the doctors wanted an answer. Sometimes this was done against the express wishes of the family, sometimes even against the laws of the state which forbid such things.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the situation has been cleaned up in the last few decades and hopefully such things are rare and the exception to the rule.
However, there is an easy answer to why the violence happens so quickly and easily.
Remember these people grew up in a school with no physical education. This is gym class for them now. Normal people go for a walk in the park. They riot. That's all.
Why don't they just send one person along with the body, a "mashgiach", to watch and make sure the examination and/or autopsy only involves what is medically necessary. Wouldn't that be the easiest way of resolving this kind of situation?
ReplyDeleteMedically, autopsy is rarely necessary. The exception would be to determine if there is a contagious disease that family members etc. would need to be checked and treated for.
ReplyDeleteAutopsy can be criminally necessary. Many cases of wrongful death can only be discovered by autopsy. Does this create a hetter to do it? I don't know. Maybe, if it can get a murderer off the street.
But, certainly the issur is on the one who performs the autopsy, he should ask the shayla. Others, while there is a chiyuv of shemira on a meis, does one really have to be moser nefesh (his or anyone elses)?
Rafi -
ReplyDeleteYou may or may not know that in Chicago over the last couple decades there were numerous cases of Orthodox Jews who died and who required autopsies. R' Azose (and possibly other rabbonim, but R' Azose is the one I personally know about) was present at the Cook County Medical Examiner's autopsy room while the work was done, ensuring kavod ha-met was kept to the highest possible degree and to ensure that halacha was followed (eg controlling the fluids from the body, etc to ensure they were buried with the body).
It CAN be done. Not sure why everyone gets all up in arms about it, when it has been shown that it CAN be done.
Anon - I understand why the hafganot take place.
ReplyDeleteI DONT understand why the state needs to have the hafganot actually take place before they just release the body for proper kevurah
1) Of course there is a history about it. And the guy who did it then is still doing it now.
ReplyDelete2) There are other methods such as non invasinve scans
3) Dont mock those that are willing to put their bodies on the line for the sake of kavod hameis. Just because you wouldnt, doesnt mean that their riot is in response to not having phys ed.
4) Its not just a shaila for the one performing the autopsy. There is an issue of chibut hakever, which means that the neshama feels what happens to the guf. This is brought down in Bm perek 7.
5) This is a most serious offense. Do you know that RMF almost assured coming to EY because of this issue? Its not a joke. Its a real issur.
6) My understanding of this entire topic is basically a machlokes of whether there is an olam haba, and whether "we" are right or "they" are right. According to the secular, once you die, youre dead. So why cant I just chop you up and give back any random parts to fill up the body bag. Who the heck cares anyways. But according to the truth, there is a huge differece. The person lives on - meaning his neshama. Its a calculated fight. Its not just some random mitzvah which caught on because its a free riot.
It's not even the hottest part of the summer yet and hotheads are aflame!
ReplyDeleteWhat came to mind was the more it heats up between differing groups the closer we get to the hottest issue, Yerushalayim, and finally the Geula IY"H!
[but please Hashem, wait until Hodesh Av so I can be there]
PS Rafi, Is it now ok to bring an iPad to Israel? Does it count as a laptop or second computer? Do you know? Maybe comeone who reads this blog will know?
2) There are other methods such as non invasinve scans
ReplyDeleteIf such a cheap and easy method could give the same information as an autopsy, they'd be using it already.
3) Dont mock those that are willing to put their bodies on the line for the sake of kavod hameis.
Don't mock the rapist for putting their freedom on the line for the sake of communal tznius standards. ("She was wearing a miniskirt, she deserved it")
4) Its not just a shaila for the one performing the autopsy. There is an issue of chibut hakever,
It's also a shaila for the murder or disease victims whose deaths won't be prevented if we don't investigate this death.
5) Do you know that RMF almost assured coming to EY because of this issue?
I know the fact that RMF didn't assur coming to EY, on the contrary, he said it was a mitzvah. Anything else is unsubstantiated rumor.
6) My understanding of this entire topic is basically a machlokes of whether there is an olam haba,
Exactly. Those who believe in olam haba support autopsies because Hashem commanded us to save lives. The rioters apparently don't care and don't believe.
i spoke to someone (not frum) who knows the family. The child was a grandchild of rav mori z"l who was the city rav before rav bitton.
ReplyDeletehe had been suffering from a medical condition with severe constipation which was being treated with medication. the doctor thinks that his intestines may have ruptured. very tragic. (I don't know if the family was in favor of the protests). the compromise reached was an external examination to rule out signs of abuse. it did.
"he had been suffering from a medical condition with severe constipation which was being treated with medication. the doctor thinks that his intestines may have ruptured. very tragic."
ReplyDeleteDid his intestines in fact rupture? Was it preventable? What are the chances that other people with the same condition will die of intestinal rupture? How can we treat them for it?
I guess we'll never know the answers to these questions, seeing how it is forbidden to investigate the issue.
You do not honor a dead child by contributing to the deaths of other children.
br/BR
ReplyDeleteno clue why you're talking about rapists here strikes me as sensationalist and off-topic
first you claim you're approach requires real halachic proof, now you're suggesting against halacha that all bodies should become research material
unimpressed. I don't like the hafganot, but illogical and non-halachic arguments don't help either.
br/BR, your comments seem to indicate that the kannoim have no monopoly on hot headedness and the rosh ba-kir mentality....
ReplyDelete6) My understanding of this entire topic is basically a machlokes of whether there is an olam haba, and whether "we" are right or "they" are right.
ReplyDelete---------------------------
This amazingly stupid argument has absolutely no foundation in truth. I can just as easily argue that those kannoim who believe that their twisted ideas of "kavod hames" trumps anything else including physically assaulting others, are pagans who have an avodah zorah idea of the afterlife and the body. To lump everyone else as atheists is just an easy justification in order to behave like a bunch of primitive animals. Contrary to what the those kannoim in RBS B believe, other G-d fearing people are absolutely nauseated what passes off as Yiras Shamayim in those parts, but what in truth is just a slide back into paganism.