So they asked Rav Levanon where to send their daughter.
Rav Levanon's response was that the decision should be made by weighing the gains and losses of each. In the religious public school, they will gain being educated about the geulah, building the land, etc. yet in their own opinion the school is not torani enough. And, Rav Levanon says, since her friends would probably not go to that school, she will not likely succeed and excel there either.
There is also a difference between the Haredi school and the "Haredi-American" school, and says they should send their daughter to the Haredi school, and they can supplement at home her education about the geula and building the land.
At the same time, it is being reported that at last night's shiur, Rav Ovadya Yosef said people should send to haredi schools and not to the general school system. Students should not be learning the core curriculum - they should be learning only torah. They should go from cheider, to yeshiva ketana, to yeshiva gedola to kollel. And they will not have parnassa problems because Hashem will help them. They can become rebbeim and dayanim and rabbonim and make a good living. Whereas if they would go to schools learning the core curriculum they would remain ignorant and not learn any torah - how can you become smart in such schools? they are ignorant, they know no Torah, they are mechalelei shabbos, and the students will also become that way, because how will they ever become better than their ignorant teachers??
So the consensus seems to be saying, today, that the haredi schools are better than the others...
can you tell me where to find this ruling of Rav Ovadya. I am SHOCKED that he would say such a thing.
ReplyDeleteSo, to be a charedi Jew you have to commit to the physical impoverishment of your children?
ReplyDeleteI mean, that's been the insinuation for years but now it's right up in front as a psak.
shas is hashem?
ReplyDeletee-man - rav ovadya's shiurim can be found at http://maran1.com/yazdim.php but last nights siur is not yet there (as of when i write this). I saw it at the Kikar link (linked in the post) and ynet had something about it as well, but I didnt read it.
ReplyDeletewhy are you shocked? it is not the first time he has said this about non=haredi schools nor about state schools that learn the "leebah"
Akiva - no. he specifically said, according t the article, that those who sit in learning will also make a nice parnassa. he says nothing abotu a requirement for poverty.
ReplyDeleteBen - so it seems
Did someone ask R. Levanon if they should send to MA?
ReplyDelete(not G)
ReplyDeleteAnyone who feels the need to ask a Rav which school to send their children to rather than thinking for themselves, deserves any answer they get.
BTW, where did Rav Levanon send his children? To Haredi schools?
Rav Ovadya's answer is even more ludicrous. He is obviously talking about the choice whether to send to a Haredi or a Hiloni school because otherwise it would be a huge slander on all the non-Haredi yeshivot. So in his view the perfect world (where everyone listens to his opinion) would be made up of dayanim and rebbeim and no other professions? I am not so sure. I believe he is speaking in hyperbole in order to impress the masses.
B"H
ReplyDeleteHey, I certainly would not wnat my children being indoctrinated into secular israeli society, something which occurs EVEN in the mamlachti datti schools. (I've seen this first hand in several schools, and hear the reports from other teachers.)
OTOH, I believe that Rav Ovadiah goes to far. Math and hard sciences, and history (taught be the right person) would be more helpful than he thinks. Writing in Hebrew is also something which has been neglected in many religious schools.
As a teacher, I can certainly understand the need to send children to a school based on learning needs, and then provide hashqafah at home, as difficult as that can be, given the strength of the indoctrination taking place.
I have religous Zionist friends sending their kids to the Bostoner Talmud Torah as well as other Haredi schools, and this seems to be working out for them.
I believe that rabbanim like Rav Leff from Matitiyahu are on the right track, blending Torah with subjects that will help lead students toward employability.
there is a big difference in what Rav Levanon said and what Rav Ovadya said.
ReplyDeleteRav Ovadya was expressing his opinion about the school systems.
Rav Levanon was responding to a question, and he specifically says he is responding taking into account the specific concerns of the person questioning. The person asking the question had concerns about certain educational points that one school would give and the other wouldn't, and asked which is more important. If you asked Rav Levanon which type of education in general is better, his answer might be different. Where did he send his kids to school? I dont know, but it might point to what he really thinks on an objective comparison (though it also might not because maybe he felt specific schools were better for specific children, ala chanoch lnaar al pi darko)
My son goes to a Bnei Akiva Yeshiva, which is part of the "Malachti Dati" Public school systems.
ReplyDeleteOne of the Ramim in the school is the Grandson of Rav Ovadia.
Does that mean that my son will grow up to remain ignorant, mechalel Shabbat, and have parnassa problems because he can't be a Dayan according to Rav Ovadia's opinion?
Well it worked out parnassa wise for R yosef.
ReplyDelete"So the consensus seems to be saying, today, that the haredi schools are better than the others..." Rafi G, I think you have totally misquoted Rav Levanon. Where there is a Dati-leumi School with a good level of religious observance then of course he wouldn't recommend sending to the Charedi school. He was answering a bediavad question.
ReplyDeleteShimon - that was just to be a bit provocative and stimulate some conversation.
ReplyDeleteI explained in the comments earlier that he was answering a question according to the criteria and issues presented by the petitioner. According to what they were looking for, in this situation with these specific schools as the choices, Rav Levanon said that the specific haredi school is the best of the choices.
he did not make a general statement.
Way - it does work out well for some. Some are extremely bright, some talented, some charismatic, some brilliant, and some well connected, and they get great jobs as dayanim, poskim, rabonim, teachers, etc. But if you look through the ranks of kollel, the vast majority are average (like the vast majority of any group) and live in relative poverty, and Rav Ovadya's utopia doesnt work out so well for them.
ReplyDeletewell you're not going to find the great ones ahead of time. The average majority must suffer and be sacrificed to create those few great ones. I say that there should be no secular education for religious jews whatsoever, and like the chaff separating from the wheat it is worth the lifelong suffering of most to create those gedoliim.
ReplyDelete(not G)
ReplyDeleteThe question is not whether or not you can make a parnassa out of Torah, the question is whether it is the ideal that people should do this.
There are two problems:
1. You are not supposed to make a "kardom lahpor bo" of the Torah. According to many (though admittedly not all) opinions making a parnassa from Torah is a rather dodgy business to be avoided if possible. But then, living on tzedakkah in order to learn Torah is even dodgier and Haredi society is built on this shaky foundation as if that were the highest noblest ideal. I would posit that people who like to go for lifnim mishurat hadin and humrot should certainly be mahmir on this one as well be yotze kol ha-shitot and avoid taking money for Torah. Certainly not an ideal to strive for.
2. In the bigger picture of things, was the Torah given to us in order to create a society that does nothing else but learn Torah, or was it given in order to create the ideal society in this world. Can you better do all the mitzvot of the Torah if you are a kollel learning avreikh or a heaven fearing man of the world living, working and mixing in society? Where do you have more opportunities lekadesh shem shamayim? Where do you have more mitzvot of honesty, agriculture, asiat mishpat, ahavat hesed and hatznea lekhet(real modesty not the fake type everyone calls tznius)? Can you really justify being more fitting to receive Torah than the malakhei ha-sharet if you exempt yourself from contact with olam hazeh?
The question asked of Rav Levanon if the mamad was on a low level then they should go the charedi route. However at least where I live the mamad torani system is on a very high level so there is no reason to go Charedi route. I think that many people are more concerned with dress then they are about what there kid learns as long as their son wears the charedi uniform then he is ok but if he goes to the mamad school and sdoes not wear a black kippah and a white shirt then he is not as good. By the way the mamad torani schools for girls are also at least in my neighborhood on a high level both in the level of learning and the level of dress. Let us prepare now for the new year and use these days of Elul to dedicate ourselves to spending time learning and doing acts of chesed and not constantly being worried what this one thinks and that one do you what you think is right and don't worry so much what people think.
ReplyDeletekol tuv
YS
I am also shocked that R. Ovadya would say that. When he needs a doctor for his children, does he go to one who went to medical school? When he needs help navigating laws, and needs a lawyer, or a real estate broker, or an accountant, does he think none of these people went to school? They are making a fine living, and I mean a real salary, not charity money that somehow the Chareidim have deluded themselves into thinking they have the right to take from WORKING people. I get it that he thinks learning Torah is good, but why must he put down everything else?
ReplyDelete