Every kashrus organization has its share of problems and scandals. It is part of the inudustry. What makes a good kashrus organization is how they respond and react to the problem. Do they fix it? Do they tale necessary action to correct it and ensure it does not happen again? Do they let it slide hoping nobody finds out?
Right now the Eida Hareidis is embroiled in the middle of a major issue. It all started when someone realized that the Eida has not shechted fresh meat for over 2 months, yet supermarkets, specifically Osher Ad, were still selling fresh meat during this period of time under the Eida label, "Hiddurim".
Rumors and accusations started to swirl that treife meat was being sold under the Eida label, and the accusations over who is responsible were flying in every direction.
Now the fight has escalated. A senior mashgiach is threatening to reveal much of the Eida's secrets, and he is saying he has had enough of their system in which real neveilos and treifos is being sold. He supposedly has the support of Rav Bransdorfer.
The Eida is threatening him with sanctions unless he retracts his statement, which for now he is refusing to do.
Is he just a disgruntled employee looking for some revenge? Is the Eida not coming clean?
As I said above, I have no problem with a fraud or a problem being discovered in a kashrus agency. It is part of the system. The issue is really how the organization responds and reacts. Do they fix the problem and introduce new safety features so it doesn't happen again or do they try to cover it up?
Many say this is a good example of why organizations like Rabbanut and Rabbanut Mehadrin are better than Eida and other private companies. With the public organizations, there is transparency. If there is a problem it gets out right away and has to be resolved fairly quickly. With the private organizations they can cover it up for a long time and nobody realizes they are eating treifos. And then, they can still deny or pass blame.
I hope they fix their problems quickly.
Maybe this is a sign from Above that we should stop putting so much stock in the Eida.
ReplyDeleteMost of us oppose their hashkafas hachaim and the people that they support so why trust them for our kashrus?
"threatening to expose" their problems has a troubling ring to it - either it's as you say problems that happen and get dealt with, and publicity of them wouldn't necessarily be accurate, OR if it's been going on and not handled appropriately then why has that mashgiach continued to participate in the system and only now unveils the information out of spite.
ReplyDeleteThe other problem with an organization like Eidah, which purports to be the top-top hechsher, is that they can incorrectly believe they have too much to lose if found to have any imperfection in their process.
I love this post. After seeing so much Jew hate on the net it's nice to just read a Jewish blog about Jewish things.
ReplyDeleteWhile I would certainly agree that the Eida hechsher is far from perfect I'm not sure I would hold the Rabanut or even Rabanut LeMehadrin hechshers out there as shining examples of how a kashrus organization should be run. Given that there are virtually no standards in order to get a standard Rabanut hashgacha and only limited standards for the Mehadrin version (and just about limited to no actual policing by the Rabanut - how can they when they have tens of thousands of teudot out there and barely any mashgichim on staff) I would say that it's incumbent upon everyone to know the place from which you buy and be contentious about speaking with Mashgichim.
ReplyDeleteThe only comfort I get from the Rabanut's "transparency" is that I can be almost sure that most of the places that have Rabanut hashgacha are likely not up to the standards of most frum Jews.
It's very simple to understand how and why these things happen.
ReplyDeleteThe more machmir we become the bigger yetzer hara we create.
"Badatz Eida HaCharedis" has become the idol of the kashrus world.
"Is it Badatz"? "Only Badatz ingredients." "We eat only Badatz" (when they lived in the US the OU was more than good enough)
So HaShem comes to show us that even the heiliger Badatz has issues and some major ones at that (treif meat!?!?!)
The past generations lived on a "lower" standard of kashrus (and yes I know that products were simpler then, etc) and produced giants. We are holier than thou in our kashrus, tznius, etc and have more issues than ever.
Perhaps the time has come to return to the simpler way of life as prescribed by the Rambam...moderation in everything.
i dont have the tools to determine which hechsher is better and which is worse. There is more in the realm of the unknown than what is public knowledge. If i choose to rely on one and not a different one, it is because of issues i am aware of that one is makpid on that the other is not. Do i know how many mashgichim each one has and how they do their job? Not at all. Subjectively i prefer to rely on mehadrin hechshers, but i am aware that they are subject to problems, and i am probably not aware of most of them because of their being private
ReplyDeleteIt is not a secret, but I am sure that many would be surprised to hear that eida supervised beef is not necessarily what is called "Chalak Bet Yosef".(Neither is OU in the US by the way.)
ReplyDeleteWhereas rabbanut mehadrin is always, and rabbanut regular sometimes is if marked as such.
There are communities that will only rely on eda hechsher because the others are tainted with "traife" hashkafos like Zionism, and therefore cannot be trusted regardless of standards.
It is a popular misconception that those in the haredi community don't eat Rabanut because of hashkafic issues. To be clear, the Rabanut is funded by and are functionaries of the government. Their entire budgets are set by the government and there is no extra money. So doing some simple math, there is clearly no way the Rabanut can properly supervise the sheer number of establishments and food companies that have their hechsher.
ReplyDeleteAny eating establishment or food production company that wants a teuda need simply apply for one and then go through an initial screen/investigation to ensure they meet minimum standards. Once a given establishment has a teuda there is little chance that the establishment in question will ever see a mashgiach again unless a violation is reported.
This is in marked contrast to the OU or any other widely known and trusted hashgacha in the US. The OU, again, while not perfect, is far more strict than the Rabanut when it comes to supervision. The Rabanut is bound by law to give hashgachot when asked and has little power and even few resources to enforce and restrict to the standards of what most of us would keep in our own homes.
Regarding your point about not having the tools to determine which hechsher is better or worse, that's simply not true. If you have a phone and a finger you could simply dial the Rabanut directly, or the Eida Chareidas, or Rav Rubin, or Sheirit Yisroel, or Beis Yosef and ask to speak with someone who could answer some questions. I'm sure they would be happy to answer your questions and give you guidance on whether or not to eat from their hashgachot given your own personal standards.
anonymous - what you are saying is like calling the girls best friend as a shidduch reference and expecting anything but a glowing report. Still, a person should find out as much as he can about any specific hechsher he is considering relying upon. Or you can base it like most people on reputation (truthfully, did you call all those organizations before you decided which you would rely on and which not?), and on what everyone else in the community does, more or less.
ReplyDeleteBesides that, despite all you say, and I agree to it all, it still does not tell me objectively which is really better. Even if I knew what to ask, and even if I knew how to evaluate their answers, just because one has this hakpada, does it make it sgnificantly better than the other that isnt makpid on that? Is one better because the shochtim shecht only 300 chickens per minute instead of 45 (I made up the numbers)? Maybe there are other factors?
Do I really know how much the mashgiach actually shows up, desite the standards of the rg he works for? And when he shows up, do i really kow how much attention he pays or if he goes on coffee breaks or chats with his friend or cousin on the phone rather than paying attention? Knowing the standards is important and great, but it does not really tell you which is better. At the end of the day, your decision to rely on this one or that one is really based on trust and reputation, not fact.
I am not arguing that the Rabbanut is a great hechsher and the eida is not. Not my point at all. And while what you say makes sense, about the rabbaut not having the resources to supervise everyone they gve a hechsher to, I have no idea if that statement is true and fact, or just your own (or someone else's) logic which might not be reality. We choose not to rely on rabbanut for a variety of reasons, such as the use of gelatins, powdered chalav nochri, non-chalak, and other factors. That does not mean others dont have their own problems, and if they try to cover them up, you never really know if they are really as good as their reputation would have you believe.
the problem is with osher ad...the so called aidah meat was missing the outer hologram...the aidah has no responcability for this...
ReplyDeleteI am not looking to decide who is at fault. I know that is the eidahs claim. I know the other side is claiming differently. and anyway, as mentioned in the post, it has gone way beyond the specific issue between osher and eida. now a senior mashgiach is claiming there are many other problems in the eidah system and much of their meat is treifos.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bhol.co.il/Article.aspx?id=23317
To be clear, the Rabanut is funded by and are functionaries of the government. Their entire budgets are set by the government and there is no extra money.
ReplyDeleteWow - I had no idea they give hashgacha for free and the expenses to do so come solely from our taxes. Hmmm that is quite a problem.
"To be clear, the Rabanut is funded by and are functionaries of the government. Their entire budgets are set by the government and there is no extra money."
ReplyDeleteIn that case it must be 100% Kashrus..there is no overhead and all expenses are sponsored by the government!
Rafi, that's actually not what I'm saying. I'm saying something more like, you hear that maybe the girl has a serious problem of some kind and you call her directly and ask an open and honest question that needs answering before you take the shidduch any further. It's basic hishtadlus that, for some reason, people in this country don't seem to feel the need to do. Somehow the Rabanut has gotten this "pass" as being beyond reproach while all the "private" hechsherim all seem to come under some question or another. My sense as to why the Rabanut never gets caught up in any major kashrus scandals is that the standards are so low it wouldn't really be news if some treif made it into production.
ReplyDeleteAs to your question on whether or not I called every single hechsher to decide which to use, the answer is no. But I was concerned enough to find someone trustworthy who did. You can find his information online at www.jerusalemkoshernews.com. I would encourage you to speak with R' Spira and ask all the questions you like. He has spoken with almost every major hechsher out there, including the Rabanut and has real information. Incidentally, he's not all that impressed by the Eida Chareidis and their track record.
Regarding the Rabanut and their resources (or lack thereof) while I have not audited their books recently I can assure you that they suffer from a serious deficiency in funding. I won't go any further on it but I can almost guarantee you that this is true.
At the end of the day Rafi, we do agree with one another that choosing to follow a hechsher is all about trust and reputation.
And to Anon 2, I honestly can't tell if you were being sarcastic or not. If not, glad you learned something. If so, then let me clarify. While any food establishment might pay the 800 or so shekel a month for a standard Rabanut Teuda, it's simply an administrative fee that would hardly fund a department as vast of the Rabanut's kashrus department. The rabbis who work for the Rabanut are state employees just like the people who work at the Misrad Harishui or Misrad Hap'nim. Thankfully we live in a country where part of our taxes can go to fund something like Kashrus supervision. Unfortunately, we live in a country where it's dealt with on a very basic level that doesn't allow for the level of attention and detail that we all know is necessary to ensure our food is actually kosher.
Rafi, that's actually not what I'm saying. I'm saying something more like, you hear that maybe the girl has a serious problem of some kind and you call her directly and ask an open and honest question that needs answering before you take the shidduch any further. It's basic hishtadlus that, for some reason, people in this country don't seem to feel the need to do. Somehow the Rabanut has gotten this "pass" as being beyond reproach while all the "private" hechsherim all seem to come under some question or another. My sense as to why the Rabanut never gets caught up in any major kashrus scandals is that the standards are so low it wouldn't really be news if some treif made it into production.
ReplyDeleteAs to your question on whether or not I called every single hechsher to decide which to use, the answer is no. But I was concerned enough to find someone trustworthy who did. You can find his information online at www.jerusalemkoshernews.com. I would encourage you to speak with R' Spira and ask all the questions you like. He has spoken with almost every major hechsher out there, including the Rabanut and has real information. Incidentally, he's not all that impressed by the Eida Chareidis and their track record.
Regarding the Rabanut and their resources (or lack thereof) while I have not audited their books recently I can assure you that they suffer from a serious deficiency in funding. I won't go any further on it but I can almost guarantee you that this is true.
At the end of the day Rafi, we do agree with one another that choosing to follow a hechsher is all about trust and reputation.
And to Anon 2, I honestly can't tell if you were being sarcastic or not. If not, glad you learned something. If so, then let me clarify. While any food establishment might pay the 800 or so shekel a month for a standard Rabanut Teuda, it's simply an administrative fee that would hardly fund a department as vast of the Rabanut's kashrus department. The rabbis who work for the Rabanut are state employees just like the people who work at the Misrad Harishui or Misrad Hap'nim. Thankfully we live in a country where part of our taxes can go to fund something like Kashrus supervision. Unfortunately, we live in a country where it's dealt with on a very basic level that doesn't allow for the level of attention and detail that we all know is necessary to ensure our food is actually kosher.
ReplyDelete100% Baloney...see my other point to Anon 2. When was the last time you were impressed by the quality of a government provided service? You can barely get in and out of a health clinic in under two hours, you think they're paying big salaries with super benefits over at the Rabanut kashrus division? Get serious. If the government says you can have 20 mashgichim for 1000 restaurants than that's what you get.
ReplyDeleteBut here's an idea for you, rather than argue with me about it, why don't you actually go and do some checking. Just ask the next mashgiach you find (if you can find one) what the current state of affairs is down at Rabbanut Kashrus. I've at least done that.
anonymouse, formerly anonymouse, whatever -
ReplyDeleteat the very least you're painting with much too wide a brush. anyone who researches a Rabbanut hechsher knows there are different levels of regard for the hechsherim in different cities. (maybe you rely too much on the "research" others did for you)
Rafi G,
ReplyDeleteI've called the local Rabbanut about a resturant, and he told me exactly what goes on there. I then described the situation (via email) to my Rav, and he pointed out what the issues were. Very simple.
If you don't want to go through all that trouble, just get the mashgiach's phone number (the resturant should have it) and ask him if he would eat there.
I dont know what you mean by everyone giving the Rabbanut a pass. very few people I know in the frum community give the rabbanut a pass. in the haredi community just about nobody relies on rabbanut, most dont even in a shaas hadchak. Even among the dati leumi, among the more serious dl (yes there is a range just like there is a range of haredim) most dont rely on the regular rabbanut - unless its a shaas hadchak or nothing else is available.
ReplyDeleteso just about nobody in the frum community is giving the rabbanut a pass.
At most I am saying that there is a benefit of transparency. And yes, scandals do happen in rabbanut. I get the rabbanut kashrus emails. they catch forgeries all the time. They announce it every time they do. Mistakes happen, and they correct them. They might be lenient on many things because of they way they are meant to work, but they have a certain benefit of transparency.
and yes I am more than familiar with JKN. I have gone to a number of shiurim by him, have been in email contact with him about various issues, I get all his updates.
I have called mashgichim of restaurants and hotels plenty of times, Yoni. That is a situation easier to deal with than finding out about general kashrus policies of a hechsher regarding shechita and supervision of a factory.
ReplyDeletemashgichim of hotels and restaurants, from my experience, especially those of the rabbanut, are every forthcoming, helpful and straight and will be very happy to tell you what the situation is, what you can rely on and what you should not rely on.
Everyone tells me to check Osher Ad, especially as it's in the next neighborhood over.
ReplyDeleteI have to say this makes me more curious than anything, now, to go check out their store.
;-)
Personally, the only EH meat I buy is frozen breast bones, mainly because I don't see anyone else selling them.
Frozen meat, I buy Bet Yosef or Rav Mahpud. Fresh, I have bought Bet Yosef. I seem to remember buying Rav Orbach fresh in Ariel. not sure.
Frozen is faster to grab.
Rafi, I hope you will try to keep us updated.
Another recent issue concerns me even more. They wrote a letter of approbation of a convicted child molester, and sent a delegation of distinguished rabbis to visit the molester in jail, with the blessings of Rabbi Tuvia Weiss, who heads the beit din.
ReplyDeleteNot many are protesting this move!
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2011/01/yisroel-weingarten-translation-of.html