The DL community has decided to pick up the gauntlet and fight back rather than just reacting to the kannoim's attacks.
This morning, some people, ostensibly from the DL community, distributed the following flyers around the streets in the area where the kannoim live.
In a certain sense these flyers are disturbing and make me uncomfortable, as they are nasty personal attacks. On the other hand, I recognize that it is difficult to win a battle when all you do is react to the other side's attacks. they are taking the fight back and going on the offensive, and "yefeh nefesh" (bleeding heart) tactics generally don't work with the kannoim.
Is it true that rocks were thrown at the Orot banim school today?
ReplyDeleteyes, along with shouting, shoving and spitting in front of the girls school
ReplyDeletebrilliant idea. use their own tactics against them.
ReplyDeleteAs Harry Truman sort of say: Speak softly and throw a big brick!
ReplyDeleteI think that fliers singiling out individuals is a great tactic.
ReplyDeleteThe best way to break up a mob is to identify people individually so that they no longer feel part of the mob.
Not sure how much it will shame or stop the individuals concerned, but it may prevent others from joining the demonstration, and makes it easier for pollice to arrest these individuals if they break any laws.
One of these guys actually said today that he's "turned on" by 8 yr old girls.
ReplyDeleteyou also need films, video, plastered all over youtube, jewtube, whatever. hi quality videos where you can see their faces.
ReplyDeleteBen, supposedly these guys don't watch online stuff.
ReplyDeleteWhere's the police? Are they being paid off????!!!!
I think the message has to be, if you want to be in this fight, you will be all in. The Dati side must not only not back down but must ramp up the pressure.
ReplyDeleteI am concerned. Shaming people is something that can cause terrible punishment, lo aleinu. Doesnt the Torah go to great lengths to prevent embarrassing people even criminals such as people who rob livestock. I am as outraged as any other person over the Orot Banot issue and the actions of the guys in RBS Bet who are causing problems are wrong but I have strong reservations about this sort of thing - naming/shaming with face ID and addresses. Staring at kids justifies photo shaming? Staring or even "shouting" are not violations of law. I am concerned of the slippery slope downward into real "hard core" sinat chinam. The fact that many of the posters here are "all for this" re enforces my concerns. This sort of thing is difficult to control once the genie so to speak is out. There is a real drive here to hurt "the enemy" and to *** give it to them but this is wrong. This attitude can lead to terrible things. Again, those staring/shouting are wrong and they are acting in a foolish, immature and irresponsible way but this vindictive side of the fine anglo community of BS is worrying. More worrying than the loony guys that are the subject of the posters.
ReplyDeleteMORE worrying? Are you serious?
ReplyDelete."מי שהפיץ כרוזים אלו פגע "בול
ReplyDeleteThis Weisfish guy is a bit worrying! Did you know he has three addresses in RBS Bet? is he under cover?
ReplyDeleteCan someone translate for us Hebrew Impaired folks?
ReplyDeleteThe press are to blame. After the first day went past peacefully, I could almost heear the press saying "kanayim, where are you, come out already?, and of course they did. I wonder if these kanayim are being paid for what they are doing - maybe by the press, or some provoacteur, who does not want his name publicized. If it is just a local group acting on their own, I agree the best way is to shame them, so they'll be even afraid to show their faces, and if they do, they should be arrested and put in jail.
ReplyDeleteFrom Life in Israel 10-2-08
ReplyDeleteThe hooligans in RBS B opened up a Kupa shel Tzdaka. Generally those who run the local Kupa have a lot of power, especially in these types of neighborhoods, because they control the money and the tone of the neighborhood.
In any case, some of the money from the Kupa went towards tznius signs (to intimidate the people of Sheinfeld), along with other signs protesting various breaches. They admitted as much to a number of people, because they were proud of what they did and they thought they would garner support for it.
Money given for a kupa shel tzdaka should be used to support the needy and not for these types of things. If they come asking for money, make sure to ask them what the money will be used for.
Rav Eidensohn, who heads the kupa of RBSA, spoke last Motzei Shabbos at the inaugural dinner of the hooligan kupa. (not last night's kupa shel Tzdaka dinner - this happened the week before) This gives them great legitimacy because he heads the Kupa of RBS A which does great work and already is a large organization with a great reputation.
When asked why he was going to be speaking there (someone present at the conversation told me) considering it gives legitimacy to the hooligans and they will use it to control their neighborhood even though they are a minority within it, he responded that he has to give them legitimacy because otherwise RBS will become too modern.
Aach - the flyers ask who likes to look at young religious girls. they then point out specific people with their contact information and say obviously this person does as he goes out every day to the girls school when it is time for them to go home...
ReplyDeleteFor Zach Kessin...
ReplyDelete"Who else likes to look at virgin religious girls?... And who else attended the party... (names & addresses)"
"(name) also likes to look at virgin religious girls... How do we know? Because all day he goes out to look at them when they come out from the Orot school. And look at his face, what pleasure he takes in looking at little girls!"
"(name / address) likes to look at virgin religious girls... How do we know? Because all day he goes out to look at them when they come out from the Orot school. And look at his face, it appears he likes it more than the rest."
I'm disgusted even writing this. I'm all for playing rough, but this is infantile and completely degrading - not only to the people targeted but to the people distributing this garbage - and ultimately to the Dati Leumi cause and to the Orot Banot girls themselves!
I'm frankly shocked and disappointed that not a single person here (and there are a number of respected individuals who posted) was willing to disavow this kind of shmutz - instead it got praise. Incredible!
"I'm frankly shocked and disappointed that not a single person here (and there are a number of respected individuals who posted) was willing to disavow this kind of shmutz - instead it got praise. Incredible!"
ReplyDeleteI guess that these posters have learned from the choshuveh Rabbonim of RBSA who also remain silent.
David
ReplyDeletethanks for the translation.
Yea the text is a bit sick.
Personally I would have just gone with "THUG" or "BULLY"
I am sorry to have to get involved here, because I have very mixed feelings about this response to the hooligans. But I feel a responsibility to present my thoughts as clearly as I can in a blog comment (since my own blog is "on vacation" until I can find some time to devote to it).
ReplyDeleteI do not like the sound of any of the Pashkevillim, but it may be that, unfortunately, since the community which they CLAIM to represent will not speak out against them, this is one of the necessary ways to combat these infantile and completely disgraceful extremists.
There is still a big difference between these posters/flyers which attack the hooligans in a manner that the hooligans appreciate (and may even be a bit afraid of) and the behavior of the hooligans in their harassment, spitting and stone-throwing campaign. While it is true that this is also a form of harassment, it is, perhaps, a necessary way to embarrass the hooligans to begin to get them to cease their horrendous behavior. And as silly and objectionable as these posters are, they are not as bad as the violent behavior of those people at whom the posters are directed. In a sense, these Reshaim (evil-doers) have brought this upon themselves by being unwilling to listen to normal objections to their behavior, and I do not think that embarrassing severe Reshaim such as these (remember they have already physically hurt a Jewish boy) to try to get them to cease their sins is an Aveirah (as someone else suggested). I only wish that they, whom claim to view us as sinners whom they have to stop, would use ONLY Pashkevilim to emphasize whatever they feel is objectionable about us!
While it is indeed a "slippery slope" downhill from these kind of posters to worse things, I hope that the people using this somewhat objectionable method will not slip down it, but will only use tactics that may be objectionable but are not evil in themselves (as stone-throwing is).
It is also true (as reported to me by Chareidim in the know) that the basic premise of the posters (that at least some of these men actually are interested in ogling the girls, but since in Chareidi society there is no legitimate way to do this, they have seized upon this method of protesting against women's dress as a way to look at women) is true vis-a-vis several of the hooligans.
So, I feel caught in the middle. I do want our side to have to resort to these tactics; but, as long as there is still restraint in the use of these tactics, I feel that it might just be a necessary part of this awful battle against people who have declared war (as they announced in their Pashkevilim) against the decent citizenry of Bet Shemesh (including Torah observant young girls!).
These are bullies. Pure and simple, just like in grade school. And a good solution to bullies is to take on the biggest one (i.e. the leader), hurt him, and then he backs off and his minions back off.
ReplyDeleteThe question is, are we of the mainstream orthodox Jewish community willing to draw a line in the sand and to write off these crazies as having stepped off the right end of Judaism's edge?
ReplyDeleteThis means not recognizing their 'gedolim' as deserving of honor or deference any more than any other (Jewish-born) cult leader. This means not giving their ideals any more credence than we would give to Reconstruionists or Kaarites.
This means refusing to support their tzedakot and actively lobbying for their exclusion from the klal in batei din and the like, and from any state support tied to Jewishness.