Yesterday the fight around OROT heated up again. Possibly in response to the flyers strewn around the neighborhood of the kannoim, or possibly in no relation to, a small group came out to harass people. they threw stones at the boys school, injuring one 9 year old child, and then they continued harassing people walking down the street. Children and women needed escorts to walk down the street.
In addition, according to the report on Israel Radio, two 2nd grade girls filed a police report against the kannoim for chasing them outside the school and scaring them. Rabbi Dov Lipman also filed a police report for being harassed. The police seem to say that standing around and screaming is not illegal, so I am not sure at what point screaming at someone crosses being just stupid and bothersome to being illegal, deemed as a public nuisance and harassment...
The Police are correct. Everyone has the legal right to stand on public property and shout and scream. Yes its not nice or ethical to so but it is not illegal. One can yell at a neighbor and its OK legally. You can file police complaints but no prosecutor will take the case because it is a waste of judicial time and resources.
ReplyDeleteEvery citizen has this right and there is nothing legally that can be done.
It's legal. That doesn't mean you might not be detained for a while, if the police on the spot decide they feel you're more of a threat if left out. A few hours in a cell may be a bit more unpleasant than many people would prefer (and much less than others mind)
ReplyDeletecan anyone explain why dov lipman seems intent on causing further provocation by standing there waiting for a reaction from the protestors? is this part of a clever strategy or is he sinking to their level?btw, this clip seems straight of the life of brian - class!
ReplyDeleteIt seems the anglos were harassing the chardeim.
ReplyDeleteLipman looks like he is looking for "action". He ignored the cop ordering a break up of the crowd.
If this is Lipman's judgement I'll never vote for him or any candidate he pushes.
And as to Mikeage - you admit its legal to stand around screaming and you think despite it being legal the Police will arrest you? If they did you could sue them civilly for violating various laws.
If someone whistles at a hiloni woman in tel aviv, and yells at her "hot chick" that is SEXUAL HARASSMENT.
ReplyDeleteClearly, they girls are being yelled out because of how they are dressed. They are being yelled at BECAUSE THEY ARE GIRLS. This is sexual harassment. I am *surprised* that there is deafening silence from the feminist organizations out there.
TO previous anonymous who accused Rav Lipman (he doesn't even refer to him as 'Rav') as 'looking for action.' Would you shut up if YOUR 8 year old daughter were harassed??? How is this different - this is a JEWISH child. Do dati leumi go outside of haredi schools and harass children???? Is protecting children 'looking for action'? Or maybe dati leumi children are just worth less in your eyes?
ReplyDeleteIf R' Lipman's attempt to walk kids home safely is a provocation, then that really says something about the people being provoked, doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteRegarding legality, I'm not a lawyer, but it is legal to to stand on public property and scream. It is not legal the threaten a particular person with imminent harm. [the line is somewhere between the two, subject to many factors, (including, of course, politics)].
If the police feel that one's actions endanger public safety, they are permitted to detain him. While a prosecutor will not generally pursue these cases, the person has since spent some time in custody. One may or may not find that a suitable way to spend hisour afternoon.
I saw the videos, and the only provocation I can see is from Dov Lipman (did I really see him smile as he did his shtick?!)
ReplyDeleteThe people protesting and yelling were (at least as can be seen on these videos) acting in the manner of public protest in a democracy, while Lipman & Co. were not doing what I was expecting them to do - clear a path for the girls - rather they were being provacative and they seemed to be the ones causing the public disturbance.
I'm pleased and impressed by the cool professionalism of the police officer (the police chief, I think) and his handling of the situation.
There is no evidence that the chareim were shouting at any children - the only evidence is an 1. anglo couple walking and meeting up with a bunch of loonies screaming out loud.
ReplyDelete2, there are anglos in the face of the charedim taking pictures of the charedim
3. Some chardeim objected yet the anglos persisted in pic taking
4. Continued screaming
5 Then we have the policeman telling each side to stay away from each other and
6. Finally we see Lipman ignoring the order.
So where is the harassment of the girls in this video? That is why there are courts and rules of evidence. People here seem so gullible they believe anything they are told. All I see is anglos talking pictures of people who are screaming into the air. There are no children being screamed at (let alone threatened). This video bears no evidence of illegal conduct on the part of charedim but does indicate possible misconduct on the part of the anglo picture takers as well as Lipman who ignored the police order for the 2 groups to stay away from each other. Does he think he is exempt from adhering to police orders?
If charedim were snapping pics of anglos the anglos would have the right to defend themselves and take the camera away but here, where the anglos were pic taking the charedim, the charedim didnt lift a finger. Based upon this video, the chardeim look like the peaceful ones while Lipman and his anglos look like they are provoking.
I am shocked at this video. Shocked at the conduct of my fellow DL anglos and of Dov Lipman. After observing his facial expressions, body language and overall role in the confrontation video my opinion of him has shall I say, has changed.
ReplyDeleteDear Anon 12:17
ReplyDeleteYou wrote:
Clearly, they girls are being yelled out because of how they are dressed. They are being yelled at BECAUSE THEY ARE GIRLS. This is sexual harassment.
My response: Where do you see any girl being yelled at? Tell us at which point in the video do you see this?
Also, your claims that shouting at a woman is per se "harassment" are so off base they are frivolous.
the video is four minutes of a confrontation that lasted something like 45 minutes to an hour. It started when nobody was there to video it, as they threw rocks at the boys school.
ReplyDeleteAfter that it deteriorated. Parents came, including R' Dov Lipman, to escort kids out of school when it was time to leave. Women also felt like they needed to be escorted as they were being screamed at and threatened. By the time these videos were recorded, the thugs had been pushed back away from the schools by the police.
Did R' Lipman actively provoke in the video? Perhaps. Should a victim not be allowed to fight back a bit?
This school building is OROT's building and it has come under attack. I see nothing wrong with them fighting back, even if ti means provoking at times. They were provoking people who were standing there screaming at passerby.
I'm sorry this whole issue is just unacceptable.
ReplyDeleteThere are Charedim (not all I understand) who just want control.
Control of the mikvaos, control of the schools, control of stores, tzedaka and the list goes on.
Like it or not that is the issue here.
What happened with the mikve on Dolev and the supposed "moderate" charedim of RBSA shows what is at the bottom of this.
Control.
I read earlier this year on the RBS list that Lema'an Achai had over 30 banners ripped down and thrown away. These banners were next to banners of other organizations that were not touched.
Control.
There can be no other schools, no other mikvaos, no other tzedaka organizations.
Many (most actually) Dati Leumi support the charedi yeshivos, institutions and organizations in our fair city.
Can the opposite be said?
based on the video it seems your post should be titled, "Videos From Yesterday's Harassment of Kannoim Outside of OROT"
ReplyDeleteis dov lipman a double agent planted to garner sympathy for the kanoim?
ReplyDeleteI'm amused, disappointed, and yet not surprised by how few people are willing to sign their names to their comments.
ReplyDeleteOne should definitely watch the videos with the sound on. If you don't speak hebrew, ask someone to translate the calls. Hint: they're not saying "Welcome to the neighborhood".
mikeage
ReplyDeletedont be amused/dissappointed by the comments
we know what the kannoim are saying and we all agree (hopefully) that their actions are shameful
all we are saying is that this video does little in terms of fighting back.
it is pathetic really
I am the woman that was in the first video with Dov and based on the comments I can see that a lot of people watching this video did not know what they are looking at. The place that these men are standing is a few meters from the school and there is a group of girls from the school that must walk by there in order to get to the bus stop and wait for the bus to take them home. In fact, if you actually watch closely, you can see the girls approaching. We were standing there to make sure they could walk down the sidewalk without being attacked. What happened was that as they got there, the screaming was so frightening to them that despite the fact that I was standing there and told them it would be okay, they still refused to go. Instead, I walked over to them and led them past the men by walking them carefully insto the street behind the barrier where the men were standing. I guess whoever was the camera man was concentrating on filming the perpetrators of violence and not on filming the children being led around them. Perhaps the saddest thing was that even once I got them to the bus stop on Nahar Yarden, I had to stay with them until the bus came because they were terrified. You see, all around them were people that were dressed exactly like the people who were screaming hysterically at them. While the men waiting at the bus stop were just fine and doing nothing to them, in the eyes of children aged ten to twelve, they were terrified thinking if one set of men in those clothes wants to attack them, maybe all people with those clothes are dangerous. Another reason why this issue is one that should be of urgent importance to anyone that is chareidi. Do they really want children walking around terrified that somebody that dresses that way may want to attack them? As for Dov, while everyone has the right to discuss what is the right way to deal with these kind of extremists, there is nobody who devotes more of his free time to trying to protect our children from their attackers. I would suggest that people who are not there and whose children are not in danger, should be hesitant to criticize those who choose to get involved and try to help. I am not saying everyone needs to agree on exactly the same approach to extremist violence but I think it is essential that people recognize who in these videos is attacking children and who is trying to protect them.
ReplyDeleteEsther - thanks for filling in those blanks
ReplyDeleteAll the brave anonymous posters: either investigate the situation by getting off your high horses and coming and see for yourselves, or frankly, shut up. These thugs are intent on intimidation, harassment and terror. THESE ARE LITTLE GIRLS. Your disgusting attempts to blame the people who just want to send their kids to school and protect them from people who see them as sexual objects to be hidden is sick. I ask you to think and ask yourselves which side of this issue you want to be on come Yom Hadin.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad to hear you agree. Now why won't you put your name on it?
ReplyDeleteAnd if you think that R' Dov Lipman is wrong, note that he's not ashamed to put his name behind his actions. Why are you, whose condemnation carries absolutely no risk, not willing to do the same?
[same thing to the people who use this to attack RBS-A Rabbonim they don't like. If you don't like someone, have the guts to say so in your real name. Those Rabbonim get up in Shul every week under their real names, but you respond cowardly. For shame.]
To Esther above me, the problem is this video was presented ostensibly as evidence of "harassment" when in fact, it is the anglos doing the harassment. We need to have credible evidence and nothing presented so far does that. When you go to court you need credible evidence and we are entitled to evaluate the credibility of the witnesses. So as to Dov, he has political interests as well (which is not in and of itself bad) but we need to take that into account. He is not simply a concerned parent he has a political agenda and that too must be considered.
ReplyDeleteWhat is most upsetting is that these anon posters are obviously more moderate charedim as they use internet and read blogs.
ReplyDeleteThey still seem to have the need to defend the actions of the "extremists".
This is exactly the reason that you hear nothing from holy ones "on high" (the Rama). They must certainly agree some with the behavior of these thugs.
shoshana, as far as can see, none of the anonymous posters are condoning the kannoim. they are commenting on the seemingly provocative actions from dov lipman.
ReplyDeletei am not sure it is necessary to use inflammatory language ("disgusting attemots") or guilt trips (- "yom hadin"); after all , those tactics are ironically similar to those of the kanoim!
Dear Anonymous -
ReplyDeleteI find anyone who uses their time to not help solve the problem, support the victims or chase justice to be deserving of 'harsh language" (quite tame for me I assure you). I find people who put others down, esp those who are actively working to fix a very horrific problem- from behind a mask of anonymity to be cowards and I meant what I said about introspection. and FTR, I am happy to talk, but I will no longer respond to anyone unwilling to put their name behind their words.
isn't there another bus stop that can be used instead of taking part in such a scene at the risk of terrorizing your children???
ReplyDeletebtw, in reference to what has become a mini issue here re: anonymous posts - refusing to respond simply because because a post is anonymous (implying the messenger is more important than the message) is sad.
The bottom line is there is right and wrong- and yes all you anonymousers, HKBH expect us to stand up for right. If not now, soon, you will need to pick a side, stand up without hiding behind a screen, a newspaper, a Rav or a 'minhag' and declare where you stand.
ReplyDelete"The Police are correct. Everyone has the legal right to stand on public property and shout and scream ... One can yell at a neighbor and its OK legally"
ReplyDeletePerhaps the anonymous author of that remark will kindly put his money where his mouth is and furnish me with his address?
I am off to Israel tomorrow, and I thought I might profitably spend Thursday hollering and shouting immediately outside his apartment.
I have not yet decided on any agenda or platform to express while I shall be ranting at the top of my voice, but if the first contributor is so sure of what he has told us he can have no objections to my presence.
Come to think of it, I might even repeat the performance on Shabbat.
I shall be takig Friday off, though, as I shall be consulting an old student friend of mine who is a leading ear, nose and throat surgeon.
Actually, speaking for myself, I am anything but charedi. Again, speaking for myself, I am posting anon simply because it is my right to do so. Its commonplace to do so. I am not defending conduct which would bother or threaten children. Heaven Forbid. However, the cover story of the post is Dov's police complaint for harassment. All I saw was a bunch of charedim shouting and looking silly but they have every right to do so. I am open to changing my opinion IF THERE IS EVIDENCE. The fact that people presume anyone raising these points must be charedei says a lot. Sounds like people here are closed minded and would like to receive invitations to book burning parties.
ReplyDelete"isn't there another bus stop that can be used instead of taking part in such a scene at the risk of terrorizing your children???"
ReplyDeleteAre you serious?
We are living in Jewish Israel in 2011.
No Jewish child should have to fear going to or returning from school..especially from OTHER JEWS!!!
Anon 2:48:
ReplyDeleteI don't live in BS, but it is my impression that the thugs are waiting at the school to terrorize the girls. This has nothing to do with what bus stop they are using. Why are you blaming the parents who are simply legally sending their children to school!? Why are you not astonished that grown men are standing outside a school and terrorizing the students?
And as for what is legal and what isn't, I cannot imagine that it is legal to intimidate young children. The parents need to get a good lawyer on this.
"isn't there another bus stop that can be used instead of taking part in such a scene at the risk of terrorizing your children???"
ReplyDelete1) Most of these children are walking to their homes, not to bus stops. (Just FYI: The bus stop for school buses is directly in front of the gate to the school. The only city bus stop to RBS, and there is no school bus to RBS, without a significant detour is in fact just beyond there. So no, there is no other option.)
2) The other thing you don't see in this video, is that a group of these Kannoim have crossed the road from "the Charedi side of the street" to "the DL side" and are also standing there yelling at girls and families who walk by. I would like to find a video of these men as I find them to be the most vile and inciteful, leaving their "home turf" to terrorize people.
I join the many people who find the first video only proof that our (DL) tactics are not so "clean."
ReplyDeleteI'm all for getting these kanoim thrown out of our city - in any way possible frankly. But if the police won't play dirty, it won't help our cause to taunt the kanoim and we have to go through more standard legal routes.
I believe that the most effective method will be to hit them in their wallets.
ReplyDeleteMost Charedi schools, institutions and organizations are supported by the DL, Chardal and "middle of the road" community. Those knocking on my door for help are usually also from the Charedi sector.
Perhaps the time as come to keep our tzedaka money in our community. We have schools, institutions and organizations that need our support more than ever.
By giving first to our own we will deliver a strong message while strengthening our own mosodos.
Miriam, please refrain from commenting. this site is only for people who are closed minded to any perceived criticism of their tactics.
ReplyDeletethe fact you disclosed your name doesnt redeem you.
Michael,
ReplyDeleteDid you see this in another post on Life in Israel? Perhaps we should all reconsider our support of Rabbi Eidensohn's Kupa.
From Life in Israel 10-2-08
The hooligans in RBS B opened up a Kupa shel Tzdaka. Generally those who run the local Kupa have a lot of power, especially in these types of neighborhoods, because they control the money and the tone of the neighborhood.
In any case, some of the money from the Kupa went towards tznius signs (to intimidate the people of Sheinfeld), along with other signs protesting various breaches. They admitted as much to a number of people, because they were proud of what they did and they thought they would garner support for it.
Money given for a kupa shel tzdaka should be used to support the needy and not for these types of things. If they come asking for money, make sure to ask them what the money will be used for.
Rav Eidensohn, who heads the kupa of RBSA, spoke last Motzei Shabbos at the inaugural dinner of the hooligan kupa. (not last night's kupa shel Tzdaka dinner - this happened the week before) This gives them great legitimacy because he heads the Kupa of RBS A which does great work and already is a large organization with a great reputation.
When asked why he was going to be speaking there (someone present at the conversation told me) considering it gives legitimacy to the hooligans and they will use it to control their neighborhood even though they are a minority within it, he responded that he has to give them legitimacy because otherwise RBS will become too modern.
Miriam - I dont think there is any such thing as getting thrown out of a city. not through legal means at least. Anyone can buy an apartment, and I have never heard of using legal means to "thrpw someone out".
ReplyDeleteyou could chase someone out. Some communities have done that to people not like them, known pedophiles, abusers, criminals that werent sent to police, etc. but to chase people out you sometimes have to resort to tactics you normally wouldnt approve of..
I am not saying you should, but if you [plan to chase someone out you have to realize what it is going to take.
MiriamS,
ReplyDeletenot only is the the first video proof that your (DL) tactics are not so "clean" as you correctly wrote, but the rest of your intolerent comment (you actually want the police to "play dirty"!)just emphasizes the perception that some involved in this issue (such as yourself) are way out of line on how to live in peace with those one disagrees with.
Shlomo, according to your logic why not take a bunch of 5 year olds through East Jerusalem chanting Hatikva? A responsible parent doesn't involve children in adult politics if the cost is potentially terrorizing your child. You can't control what the others will do, but you can control what you expose your kids to. If I would have a child in that school, I would certainly make every effort and beyond to pick the kids up by car for now. It's a shame that so many of the children are being needlessly exposed to all the sinat chinam and stress of this sad story.
ReplyDeleteAnon of 4:44,
ReplyDeleteYour criticism of my post is absurd.
We are in Jewish Bet Shemesh in 2011. The fear shouldn't be from other Jews.
Interesting how you compare to East Jerusalem..where these thugs would probably rather be.
I am not sure I understand the logic of criticising parents of OROT for involving their kids because the kids either have to cross the street to go home or go down the block to get a bus to a different neighborhood.
ReplyDeleteIt is not the paretns involving the kids. It is the kannoim involving the kids by going to the school and disrupting their lives.
Not every parent has a car, some parents work and are not available to pick their kdis up, some have other situations that dont allow them to be there. They have school bus, they have city bus arrangements, or they live right across the street! It is not the parents involving the kids!
Leaving aside the question of whether its illegal to yell the way they are doing, the 2nd video seems to show the kids being forced to walk in the street rather than on the sidewalk to get from their school to where they are going.
ReplyDeleteIsn't blocking a sidewalk illegal? Its certainly more than a little dangerous to have kids walking in the street.
The people who are behind this provocation of the peaceful and loving Chareidi community gave only one goal in mind. To prevent Tzedqkah from going to Holly charedishe mishpachos and instead using it to send our daughters to to the defiled places like the army or high school. We have Mr. Prof. C. Soloveichik who terrorizes the Torah with his false name and Hashkafas. Why else would he command his followers to send there little girls into the midst of our holly neighborhood other then to influence our daughters away from modesty and to inflame the hearts of the holly husbands and fathers of our community into the terrible avairos that exist among the fake drum tzionim.
ReplyDeleteYankel
The commity for public safety and modesty spokesperson.
Yankel, I'm guessing you are joking. Nobody could seriously consider the charedim of RBS-B to be "peaceful and loving." We are talking about people who scream at, and chase, little girls!
ReplyDeleteYour refusal to stand behind your viewpoints and words discredits them far beyond anything I could ever say.
ReplyDeleteI will say this though. Come down to the school, see these thugs in action and then post. Lets see you blame the 6 yr olds and their parents once you see these perverts screaming at children while dressed as Torah Jews.
Pathetic. Useless. Cowardly.
Shlomo, I hope you don't think it's OK to let kids suffer on the altar of showing you're right.
ReplyDeleteLeave the kids out of this.
The reality is that if you or anyone else find it tramatic for the kids to be in this situation, don't expose them to it. Whether you find it absurd that kids in Israel in 2011 need deal with this is irrevelant.
Personally, I find it absurd and sad that the age old way of settling property and neighborhood disputes among Jews, i.e. a proper beit din al pi the shluchan aruch, is not on the table as an option among what is supposed to be a dispute between groups of Orthodox Jews, whatever flavor they all may be.
We can all agree that we all should merit true shalom this Elul despite our many faults, both individually and community wise.
Its like lala land in here Rafi!
ReplyDeleteThe only way to keep the kids away is to keep them home from school. I can only assume you are unaware, but they come to the school, shout at the girls, throw rocks into the boys school windows and today at a father in the street.
They chased two girls at the bus stop- not from OROT this is an attack on people not like them and we can't avoid them- unless you are in favor of the Gush Katif solution?
As Moshe Friedman, one of the leaders of the kannoim, said, as he is quoted in Haaretz at http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1240904.html that the school wont be there. It might take years, but in the end they wont be here. The government wont be here and the school wont be here.
ReplyDeleteYankel
ReplyDeleteAll I can say is that it takes a special kind of scum to attack a bunch of first grade girls. And if those grade school girls are "tempting" husbands in the hassidic community well we have a term for that too.
You Sir are the worst kind of bully.
If parents are worried about the children's safety then why would they walk them through a group of charedim while the other side of the street is completely clear? And I've heard enough analogies for now to Gush Katif so i would just like to ask those parents - what is wrong with you that you would do this to your children? If you have to keep them at home - then keep them at home, don't throw them into traumatic situations. Regardless of what point you're trying to make, keep the poor children out of you're immature decisions!
ReplyDeleteRafi-
ReplyDeleteYou should delete that idiot's last post (the mighty brave anon). The parents have had a hard enough time, they don't need some holier than thou shmo calling them bad parents.
you know why he is anonymous? because that way he can leave idiotic and provocative comments.
ReplyDeleteyes, it is the parents fault because they send their kids to school. stupid.
...and what about the "idiotic and provocative" action of walking through a group of charedim while the other side of the street is perfectly clear?
ReplyDeleteI know I should poke an anonymous bear but:
ReplyDeleteIf parents are worried about the children's safety then why would they walk them through a group of charedim while the other side of the street is completely clear?
Please read my previous comment.
Lorien posted:
"The other thing you don't see in this video, is that a group of these Kannoim have crossed the road from "the Charedi side of the street" to "the DL side" and are also standing there yelling at girls and families who walk by."
No one is purposely walking their children into the 'line of fire'. There's just no line without fire to escape to.
and how were they supposed to get to the other side of the street? the crosswalk is at the corner in the direction they were headed..
ReplyDeleteRegardless, as I have said, I see nothing wrong with the "attackee" fighting back. You are blaming them for provoking, but you really just want them to accept the attacks of the kannoim and take it without responding. As if it will go away on its own. They feel the need to fight back.
I might not like all the decisions they make in their responses, such as I was not happy with the pashkevilim they put in the kannoim's neighborhood (I did like it from an excitement point of view, I did not think it was reasonable from the fight point of view), but they are the ones being attacked and have the need to fight back.
I apologize for my previous comment I wrote it while my face was heated, although I suppose this is no excuse, since you I'm sure have seen more that outrages you than I have.
ReplyDeleteI do not want them to accept the attack, but merely avoid the attack while in presence of children.
The real people to blame here are not the 'apathetic' majority (of charedim or dallim) who sit at home and pontificate on the internet(as I am doing now) - such is life.
ReplyDeleteThe real people to blame are the police - what right does that police chief have to say he can do nothing without evidence? He has all of the resources and power available to stop these protests or move them away from the school vicinty. The threat of violence is more than sufficient for him to use this power - the police do not have to wait for someone to be assaulted/injured/worse before they intervene (and for him to state as much is absurd). Yet he seems more intent on having his 'overworked' officers deal with minor traffic infractions in the Mercaz of RBS A .
Rafi's astute friend
well said. the police look for ways to avoid doing their jobs (I guess that is true of many of us...)
ReplyDeleteI must point out how ludicrous it is for 'anon' to apologize for a post. How are we to know which post and which anon!
ReplyDeleteIf i don't do my job then i will lose my business. If the police don't do their job...
ReplyDeleteThe atitude of the BS Police in geberal stinks. I have seen them act with complete apathy and disinterest when action is needed (such as in this video) and completly unjustifyable violence from BS police. Coming from chul it is a real eye opener. We live in the wild west.
Dov may be willing to take on the extremists, but I bet even he would not wish to take on the police!
Astute.
This topic has worn itself out, so it's fair time to say that it's hypocritical or just plain naive that someone like Shoshana thinks she's any less anonymous than the claimed Anonymous. Her name tells nothing about who she is, nor do the the links to her profile indicate her true identity. Same goes for a number of the brave souls using "names" (Mikeage, for example) that are just as unindiciative as Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteNice try dude. Everyone knows who I am. But even so, at least I'm using my name.-
ReplyDeleteShosh
"everone knows who I am" huh?
ReplyDeleteSeeing as how I've used the same ID online for over 10 years (actually, closer to 15), this is hardly anonymous. You're welcome to look up my info and call me during the day if you doubt that.
ReplyDeleteEvery single one of the people here with a real name is known in their community.
Again, R' Dov Lipman and the rest of us are willing to stand behind our words. What are you afraid of?
Mikeage, what's your full name. You dart in and out but who the blank knows who you are.
ReplyDeleteDitto, Shosh. Full name, please.
Doubtful either will reply so basically you are both anon with "names". Yet you attack others using "anon". who is more trustworthy someone honest enough to simply state anon or someone who hides their name pretending not to be anon?
I am not afraid, but nor am I a frier. In language paahut enough. Ill show you mine if you show me yours.
ReplyDeleteS
Although pseudonyms are just as anonymous as "anonymous" is, the difference is that those using pseudonyms are not pretending to be a bunch of different people.
ReplyDeletePerhaps Rafi should insist that people post using -- at least -- a pseudonym and then stick with it, at least for the duration of the thread.
Moshe Friedman should be put in jail for incitement and threats against the state of Israel....and for anyone who is actually blaming the victims -little girls who have the RIGHT to travel freely to and from their school...SHAME ON YOU!
ReplyDeleteSD - it has been tried before and I have watched other blogs try it. there are too many ways around it that render it pointless. I could set up moderation and/or require names with google accounts, and then only pass comments with those names, but then we would just have 2 or 3 comments...
ReplyDeleteBut the 2 or 3 would be from people with enough integrity to stand by what they say, not run in, throw a grenade run out and then snicker through a peephole.
ReplyDelete(Just saying)
I know you know who me and Mikeage are- do you know the various anoners?
how can I know who they are? They are anonymous!
ReplyDeleteas you wish, but I wldnt allow cowards to post freely on my blog- just ... childish-
ReplyDeletewho knows, maybe if you closed anon, they'd pick a psuedoname and stick with it..
ok night folks
RAfi said (a long time ago at the beginning of the thread):
ReplyDeleteShould a victim not be allowed to fight back a bit?
This school building is OROT's building and it has come under attack. I see nothing wrong with them fighting back, even if ti means provoking at times"
this sounds a bit strange as i can say the same thing:
Should a victim not be allowed to fight back a bit?
This school building is THE CHAREIDI COMMUNITY'S building AS IT IS BUILT ON LAND THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALLOTTED TO THEM (IF NOT FOR VAKNIN'S SICK POLITICS OF INSTIGATING PROBLEMS IN BEIT SHEMESH) and it has come under attack.AND GIVEN TO A DIFFERENT COMMUNITY. I see nothing wrong with them fighting back, even if ti means provoking at times"
SEE i just changed the victim and agressor and using your wording legitimized all the fighting and provoking of the kannoim.
Astonishing how people can justify anything.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteAstonishing how people can justify anything.
September 07, 2011 10:57 PM
not sure if you meant me or Rafi earlier
Hello. My name is Rachel Hershberg, I live on Rehov Gad, and my daughter was chased by some of those sikrikim on her way home from school, which was being dropped off from Rappaport's ha'saah. She, and her neighbor, who are both in second grade, came home in tears and terrified.
ReplyDeleteMy husband was on the other side of the street, escorting the girls through the men who were screaming "Shiksa, pritzah." They called him a sheygetz, told him he should take off his kippah, and said he was no better than Hitler.
I'm relieved to see on these talkbacks that those who initially defended their legal right to make people's lives miserable have shut up.
The fact that the charedi world tolerates this is a busha, and I call upon all those who call themselves charedi to a) acknowledge the problem, b) start condemning it for what it is, and c) ask the leadership to get involved. This is a society that organized a 40,000 people (peaceful ) demonstration within 24 hours. I'm sure you guys can figure this out.
Anyone who defends, or is silent in the face of evil - shame on him and those that taught him.
ah, the silence... its deafening (anon and his ID) and KOl Hakavod to the last comment- you said it right.
ReplyDeleteI think everyone in the chareidi community has their own run-ins with the kannoim.
ReplyDeletei don't think that anyone will come out against them because they have to save their weapons for their own causes.
it doesn't mean the agree with them they just have no reason to get involved.
the dati leumi asked for the problem by allowing Vaknin to give away the kannoim's turf. let them deal with it.
are they helping the chareidi community to deal with getting the chiloni school which is half empty out of sorek (another one of vakin's presents.)
does it bother them that there are so many dati- leumi schools in ramat beit shemesh aleph that bus in students from out of the neighborhood when all the local chadorim are holed up in rotting caravans,
Bekitzur, you guys were fine with all the shkotzeray of building allocations of vaknin, now deal with the baalagan yourselves
Really, You're a real winner 'anon'. I really didn't have anything against charedim (except those that take from and then spit on the State) but all this cowardliness is not endearing you to me.
ReplyDeleteSo, you are saying that because we 'allowed' a mayor to do something (as if) - our daughters can be threatened by pedophiliac psychopaths? Nice.
FTR my daughters go to school in RBS and learn in caravans, and I know that the iriya doesn't have any intention to give them a proper building and the irony is, i care that my girls get educated, feel good about themselves and value their worth beyond bearing children.
The parents of OROT worked their tails off for that building-- it was not given to them. Perhaps thats your problem, you think things should come to you without working towards it -and fagin anyone who earns something.
It's really a shame that there's no good, clear explanation of how buildings are allocated and funded. Hint: public schools get (relatively) lots of funding and buildings. Semi-private schools don't get as much. Independent schools get nothing.
ReplyDeleteAnd now for the offensive part, b/c it seems subtlety will be lost here.
Go down to behind the Merkaz and count the schools, and see how many are allocated to each sector. You can use your ten fingers to help you count; you may need to take off your shoes to help you get up to twenty. I'm pretty sure you won't need to get 21 (which is good, b/c I'm not sure how you'd do that). See how many are allocated to which sector. Now see if your question makes any sense.
Dear Shoshana,
ReplyDeleteSo, you are saying that because we 'allowed' a mayor to do something (as if) - our daughters can be threatened by pedophiliac psychopaths? Nice.
to answer your question- no. i didn't say that. i agree you should fight but don't come crying to the other chareidim to help you.
fight all you want. i wish you lots of luck and would be very happy if you got the kannoim to crawl into their holes and stay there.
you further said:
FTR my daughters go to school in RBS and learn in caravans, and I know that the iriya doesn't have any intention to give them a proper building
why should they? i don't know where your daughters learn, but the result of the democratic elections put people into office who are working to balance the rihus of Vaknin. i am sure that when everybody else gets their buildings you will too.
you said:
The parents of OROT worked their tails off for that building-- it was not given to them
i am sure that they worked their tails off, but if they would have told vaknin that they are not willing to steal the land from the chareidi neighborhood and he should find them a different piece of land, then they would have gotten out of the problem. my point only was that they went along with vaknin's shcitut and now they are paying the price.
you said further:
you think things should come to you without working towards it -and fagin anyone who earns something
i am not sure what gave you that impression. i know that all the chareidi mosdos are working just as hard to get buildings and even then they get shtooped in three mosdos into a building that was built for two.
mikage,
ReplyDeleteand then when you finish, you could put your shoes back on and take a walk (or drive) up sorek, where you will pass buildings of ahavat yisrael, tarbut haamimim, continue on to pass etrog, and then on refaim noga gilo harel and one more don't remember what it's called.
when you find 7 chareidi mosdos in a building that even comes close to compare to any one of those seven then log in again and update your comments
'anon' and I really resent talking to someone whose word is worth so little he won't put his name to it.
ReplyDeletePeople who don't recognize the State might have a hard time squeezing funds out of it, don't you think?
The only other part of your post I will relate to his how you say we shouldn't come 'crying to you' for help against thugs.
It seems that you are saying that since you also want schools, and you think OROT 'stole' the land from the charedim (which I call BS on) we deserve poop on a school, threats against kids in the name of Torah, and terror. You know what? I have nothing to respond to that. Its beyond the pale.
Which of the deprived Chareidi mosdos are public schools that are eligible for public funding?
ReplyDeleteAnd the buildings behind the Merkaz aren't all that bad... sure, they're small, but every school is overcrowded _except_ safa v'tarbut. But just like you can't take your neighbor's mirpeset just because you ran out of bedrooms, schools don't get reallocated that way. If a reasonable proposal was put forth that compensated them for the building, the school would love to take it; do you think they really enjoy the location? It's not like it's on the way to work for any of the parents...
And you can hate Vaknin all you want (and he really was a terrible mayor), but if you look at how the Chareidi population grew under his so-called leadership, you'd think a little gratitude would be present. Anglos, too, for that matter.
Shoshana, my word is so valuable it is priceless. i am still looking for a name good enough to match my word. (LOL!!)
ReplyDeletei don't understand what you mean by "People who don't recognize the State might have a hard time squeezing funds out of it, don't you think?"
don't mean any response, just don't understand who you are reffering to.
but what you said "we deserve poop on a school, threats against kids in the name of Torah, and terror."
chas vesholom. take a deep breath and read my post again. i think you should fight and you are right to fight, but don't ask for help.
also i never said orot stole the land- just said that vaknin wrongfully gave away the turf to a different community.
and to my dear unannonymous mikeage, first of all, all charedi main stream mosdos get funding from the government as is dictated by the law of the State of Israel. (that is when they get through all the red tape that is constantly put in their way)
and besides that, funding for the buildings come from several sources including the iriyah, misrad hachinuch, and mifal hapayis.
none of that has to do with the allocation, which is supposed to be given to theiriyah to decide.
therefore your basis of your claim that public schools should get first is based on a wrong assumption.
i don't think you can compare the overcrowding of these schools too the overcrowding of the chareidi mosdos. there is a difference between one school being crowded in a building built for one school and three scools being crowded into a building built for two.
also take another good look, the buildings don't compare, neither in size or in the size of the chatzerot.
and you wonderfull defense of vaknin is wrong. ramat beit shemesh aleph was planned and built for chilonim and when the chareidim bought up all the apartments that the chilonim weren't interested in, he fought them tooth and nail and stuck mizrachi and chilonim schools in their midst. what is it that he gets gratitude for? that he didn't kick them out physically, or that he helped bring them together to fight the common cause thus adding to achdus in the chareidi community?
Let's play a little game. It's called "reading"
ReplyDeleteOriginal quote "told vaknin that they are not willing to steal the land"
New quote "i never said orot stole the land"
I will happily talk with anyone with a memory, but I'm really unable to deal with someone who can neither remember nor scroll back. I'm afraid I'm not talented enough. Sorry; I really wish I was -- I think you'd find that being able to understand enough facts to live in peace with both Chareidi and Dati Leumi neighbors would bring you happiness. It does for me (we have a wonderful building; Americans, French, Israelis, DL, Chareidi, Sefardi, Breslov...; you're welcome to come visit anytime you want.)
i stand corrected.
ReplyDeletei actually did scroll back to my previous post, just the wrong one. i went back too far.
i take it back and correct it to match the first post, that had they told vaknin that they are not willing to have him give away the kannoim's turf etc. there no one stole just corrupt politics which I really meant all along.
as far as your beautiful building, i am sure that if any one of the kannoim lived in your buiding you would also get along with them on a personal level.
most of the issues of beit shemesh is irrelevant to the peaceful living along of the different kinds of people in the neighborhood.
i don't remember too many issues on that level. most of the disagreements are on communal levels without bad blood between any specific neighbors.
that is part of the nice thing of beit shemesh and i agree with you.
Shoshana - if you can't stand the anonymous function in the blog then just get off the internet. Everyone has heard enough so you can stop putting that at the top of all your comments.
ReplyDeleteFriend (the latest brave anon)
ReplyDeleteThere is only one man who can tell me what to do, and though I don't know who you are, I know you're not him. And with that, I now know why you are afraid to post a name. You're all scared of your wives! :)
thanks, I needed that.
Shoshana,
ReplyDeleteas they say in ISrael חחחחחחחח
maybe after all that it is your husband commenting anonymously.
and maybe everyone is afraid of you.
why does somebody have to have a name to say something. the purpose ( maybe) of a blof forum is for people to discuss issues and debate ideas. why is it relevant to have a name.
answer the point, not the person. (and leave your sholom bayis issues to be annonymous. it might be better of for you)
Land was never 'the charedi's' land.
ReplyDeletePublic land doesn't "belong" to anyone. It's allocated by the state. (Which btw, the extremists don't even acknowledge.)
- It's not in a Chareidi neighborhood, it's at crossroads of several neighborhoods, mostly mixed Dati Leumi/Chiloni.
- The land for the schools was allocated for those schools before the buildings on Herzog were built.
The buildings on Herzog were originally slated to be for the Dati Leumi community.
- The overcapacity issue of the Chareidi schools is a problem of their own and/or the city's doing. The rate of influx of people into Bet Shemesh has been incredibly rapid. Residential buildings are going up much faster than infrastructure and support services.
-These new schools were years in the planning for kids that were also learning in substandard conditions. Most reasonable people understand this and know that they need to wait their turn for their schools to be built. (And many schools are under construction throughout RBS.
dear anonymous,
ReplyDeleteyour first two points contradict themselves,
if the buildings were originally slated for dati leumi and that is why the land was alocated accordingly, then it should have changed when the buldings did.
Also' whether the plot is in or ourside the chareidi neighborhod is irelevant, as the main issue is that the land was somehow connected to the buildings and was supposed to be for their use, according to various rules of developing.
the schools were not allocated before, which is why there was a tumult at the time of allocation.
the issue of the chareidi schools is the fault of the previous mayor who didn'y allocate based on the need of the community, rather for crooked political reasons.
and anyways that is just an asside the happened to come up over the course of the thread.
where are the MANY schools that are under cnstruction? haven't seen too many around.
And besides my issue was that things should have been done differently at the planning stages and the building which Orot deffinately and rightfully deserve should have been built at a different location. the fact that it wasn't is the issue and therefore i said and say that they cooked their own cholent and have to eat it as they already have no other cholent available.
(and by the way, I am happy to see that there are also annonymous bloggers on the Orot side, and I am sure Mikeage and Shoshana are starting to appreciate anonnymous bloggers.)
No one who can't bring verifiable facts or put their name behind their statements is worth listening to. Bring documents, statements, or other proof to whichever side you're claiming, or at least your own credibility. Otherwise, it doesn't matter what side you're on; you're irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteBTW- that last anon was me from my BB it doesn't allow me to log in- so , nope all the ridiculous anons are on the side that thinks the kids and parents deserve psychos screaming at them- and after reading the brainwashing mind numbing hardei papers I see why you think the DL 'stole' land, but really, try to have a brain and think for yourselves.
ReplyDeleteActually, to respond to the top comment. What they are doing in yelling at the girls is assualt (but not battery unless they do something physical) as well as disturbing the peace.
ReplyDeleteHi, it's Dov Lipman. I was just shown all these comments a month later and hope that those who were analyzing my behavior read this.
ReplyDeleteI pride myself on trying to do the right thing and analyzed the video because I was disppointed with my behavior for two separate moments in the clip - each lasting for about three seconds.
The goons were blocking the sidewalk and the girls had to walk through. We asked the police to go up there and clear it but they did not. So we went up.
Why did I pump my fists in the beginning when I had no thoughts at all of challening them but just to get the girls through? I realized after watching the clip that I was caught off guard and, frankly, scared when I heard that they were chanting my name. My reaction to cover my fright, which was a wrong reaction, was to pump my fists. I quickly caught myself and stopped.
No one should think for a moment that they were screaming because I did that but I do admit that it was wrong and I am happy I caught myself and stopped.
Later in the video you see me sort of conducting them or egging them on with my hands. Again, why did I do that? They were actually yelling threats at me at that point and again my reaction was to sort of act like I was conducting them for a few seconds like it did not bother me even though it did. It was wrong and I again caught myself.
Thank G-d, we got the girls through.
as for ignoring the police, the only time I ignored a policeman was when, after we got the girls through, one girl came back crying so I ran to her to see what happened even though the officer asked us to stay on the side. This is at the 3:17 mark.
I filed my complaint against the goon who spit directly into my face which is caught on the video at the 3:45 mark.
I hope this clarifies and anyone who has questions about my behavior then or any other time is welcome to e-mail me at ddlipman@gmail.com and ask about it instead of offering analysis and condemning without knowing what actually happened.