Not only did the city workers have the gall to remove the tzedaka boxes, but the money was being held and not returned to the various organizations. the only way any specific organization could release the money that had been in it's boxes would be by going down to the offices and paying a fine.
The article was both in commentary on the heinous act of the city removing the tzedaka boxes, and an interview with the fellow in charge of the department responsible for the heinous act, and an editorial. One would be safe to say that a large part of the newspaper this past week was dedicated to the removal of the tzedaka boxes.
Interesting points that were made, with my thoughts:
- the editor called it a "maaseh s'dom" - an act of Sodom. Sodom being known for cruelty, though this is not the precise definition of the term "Sodomite act", was nothing compared to the harsh decree of the evil man from shipui plei ha'ir. His harsh decree against the city's poor and unfortunate is just beyond the pale.
- In the interview, the questioner asked why they did it, considering not a single resident is opposed to the tzedaka boxes. Now I don't know who is opposed and who is for, but I don't know in whose name he is able to make such a bold statement. Nobody asked my opinion, nor did they ask the opinion of a few people I spoke to about this. While perhaps many are in favor of these tzedaka boxes (and I am not suggesting any percentages in favor or against - no study or poll has been conducted that i am aware of), saying "not a single resident" seems to be a pretty bold statement.
- I am not sure what the questioner, or the organizations behind the tzedaka boxes, were thinking. They think that just because the residents are not opposed (and I am not saying that this statement is true, but even if it is), they can do whatever they want? There is no longer a need for city permits and licenses and they can damage city property (or maybe the bus stops belong to Egged and Superbus?) just because nobody is opposed? City government, all government, is there first and foremost to avoid chaos of people doing whatever they want. If any person or organization can do whatever it wants just because they think they have a certain percentage of support, the city will descend into chaos.
Personally, I don't know what to say about this issue.
To start off with, I already feel guilty even just implying that there might be a reason to oppose it, or that I give the impression that I might oppose it. It is an opportunity for tzedaka, you can give or not give, but why stop others from giving?
Regarding the issue itself, my internal conflict asks which side is more of an issue -
on the one hand it is a beautiful thing that have the opportunity for mitzvas completely surrounding us, with the thought that the tzedaka given before taking a bus ride might help to keep us safe on the roads.
On the other hand, what gives them the right to place these boxes wherever they want? It is aesthetically ugly at times, sometimes it is dangerous (I know I have banged into the corner of these boxes at various bus-stops), sometimes there are just too many boxes in any given bus-stop (maybe they need to divide up the city bus-stops among the organizations and allow one box per bus-stop). They can apply for licenses and put them in appropriate places. The city has to be concerned about image, cleanliness and regulation, along with taking their cut in licensing fees. The city is not, or at least it should not be, hefker.
As well, on the one hand the city has a right to clean things up. They have an obligation to.
On the other hand, is there where they had to start? By removing tzedaka boxes? Maybe start with cleaning the garbage out of the parks, maybe get rid of all the graffiti around the city, fix the broken sidewalks, and all the other spots in the city that are in disrepair. Though the city has to start somewhere, and this is as qualified as a spot as anything else.
What do you think? Is it right or wrong of the city to remove the unregistered tzedaka boxes from the public areas?
First they didn't get them all, they are plenty around the Dolev circle.
ReplyDeleteSecond, I think this is a case of a situation just running amok. Nobody paid much attention when there was an occasional box added to a bus stop or shopping area. When it got to the point where every available open space had a box attached, the city perked up and took notice...
"If pole space is that valuable, why aren't we taxing it or licensing it?" muhahahaha
This seems to be a very Israeli way of doing things.
I am in agreement with removing the boxes. Putting them up is all part of the shanty-town mentality where anyone can build anything anywhere because no citizen will oppose it. As you say it is the job of government to govern and letting askanim know who is boss is a good thing. That said, there are indeed many other areas that the City needs to show who is boss... but this is as good a start as any. Next they should prosecute bill posters, erecters of private eruvim, double parkers and people who leave the shells of their garinim all over the floor in public places.
ReplyDeleteThe funniest part of the interview was the reporter's responses. It was a sputtering "what do you mean you're enforcing the law (or regulation)? who said you could enforce the law (or regulation)? how could you do such a thing like enforce the law (or regulation)?"
ReplyDeletetzedaka given before taking a bus ride might help to keep us safe on the roads
ReplyDeletehmm I guess you've read those boxes more carefully than I have Rafi!
then you have the question of which charities are worthy of hanging their boxes on the stops
and who is liable when their nasty corners snag someone's pants or knock into the forehead of a little kid
it's ok people can write checks at home.
If only they removed all the crazy posters as well.
ReplyDeleteI share your mixed feelings. OT1H, giving tzedaka is good. OTOH, just because it's a good cause, doesn't give them the right to weld their boxes onto public or private property. I feel the same way about the freestanding tzedaka boxes that get chained to lampposts or cemented into the floor outside shopping centers. Who gave them the right to claim that piece of public property as theirs?
ReplyDeleteMy negative feelings are exacerbated particularly because I detest the manipulative (and frankly decitful) marketing methods that some of these organizations use to solicit funds. They make a mockery of Torah by turning tzedaka into a tool for getting segulos in Olah Hazeh, instead of a mitzva bifnei atzmah. But even leaving my personal prejudices aside, and despite my general libertarian feelings, I think that this kind of thing really does have to be regulated. That's one of the functions of government: upholding justice - in this case, the protection of public and private property.
The approach was heavy handed though. They should first have sent letters of warning to the tzedaka orgs to inform them that if they don't remove their boxes at their own cost, they will have them confiscated.
another example is all the trailer cars used for advertising parked all over the city, many of which take up valuable parking spots.
ReplyDeleteThe city should should tow them all and fine the owners a lot of money.
If they have a legal claim because these are registered vehicles because of the license plate, the city can declare them abandoned and get rid of the,. When a car is parked in one place on public property for so long untouched, there has to be such an ability to declare it abandoned and remove it.
I think that it's objectively wrong for the charities to put them without permission and objectively right for the city to remove them. That said, a government has limited resources and can't always do what is objectively right, nor is it always wise to. (ie choose your battles.)
ReplyDeleteI didn't read the article as I don't even think Chadash is fit for picking up dog poop, let along bringing into my home, however one has to wonder if the boxes in question were from L'man Achai, would the Chadashites be opposed to them being removed?
David Morris @ Tzedek-Tzedek has an interesting take on this...
ReplyDeletehttp://tzedek-tzedek.blogspot.com/2011/10/is-bet-shemesh-municipality-against.html
The whole idea of the hefkerus of tzedaka advertising has come to a head IMHO.
ReplyDeleteWalls of buildings, fences, shuls and the like are literally plastered with this material not to mention the piles of brochures left on tables, dumped on my doorstep and littering the streets.
This YT season was particularly severe. One organization printed 3 different posters for Rosh HaShana, a brochure and large pillars outside of shuls. If that wasn't enough Yom Kippur came with a new poster, 2 new brochures, a different pillar and one story banners affixed to traffic circles (not to mention the mobile book that went singing through the neighborhood).
ENOUGH! The money spent on these items could have helped dozens of families.
I have always supported the work of all local organizations but as time goes by I look more closely at how each spends their money.
On another note. I daven in a shul whose Rav is closely connected to Lema'an Achai and whose director davens in the shul as well. It amazes and impresses me how other organizations are given free reign to collect there as I know this isn't the case in reverse.
I was appalled that the Kupa inundated my shul with material and then placed a pillar outside the front door without sensitivity to the Rav or head of Lema'an Achai.
They should appreciate that they are allowed access to the shul for solicitation and should not go overboard.
1. Utilizing Public property without permission.
ReplyDelete2. By placing boxes of money on public property, if the government does not remove them, do they become liable for the contents of the box? are they liable for what happens to others in relation to the box?
3. who decides which charity can put up a box?
4. If a charity uses public property, does they have rules they need to follow to justify utilizing public property? Do they submit their books to gov't audits?
5. If a charity is a scam but has used public property, is the gov't liable?
6. if a charity raises money through theft, is that money still considered tzedaka? if they take from the public without permission, or even more so, against the law, is it still a mitzvah to support such a charity?
7. zoning re:appearance, saftey of location, permits
I could go on and on, so there are many legitamite reasons why the gov't should not allow charity boxes in the public square.
Way - all very good points, some of which I had not thought of. thanks
ReplyDeleteKol Hamosef Goreah said...
ReplyDeleteI was appalled that the Kupa inundated my shul with material and then placed a pillar outside the front door without sensitivity to the Rav or head of Lema'an Achai.
To Lama'an Achai?? Aren't they in the same business? Why on earth should Lama'an Achai object to the Kupa raising money for residents of RBS??
Hamasig,
ReplyDeletePlease don't put words into my post.
Who said that Lema'an Achai objected?
Of course Kupa should be able to collect anywhere. So should Lema'an Achai.
All that I was saying was that in the shul of the Rav and director of Lema'an Achai they could be a little more respectful and not "take over" all area and space.
Especially since (from what I understand) Lema'an Achai is allowed NO presence (except for their helping people) to collect in many of the RBSA shuls.
Are you upset about that?
hamasig,
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately the Kupa Shel Tzedaka has made tzedaka collecting a war in Ramat Bet Shemesh.
Their campaigns have become more and more elaborate and cover ground everywhere. Their rabbonim encourage people to give to them and only to them.
The other rabbonim in RBS are much more open minded and actually believe that it is all tzedaka and therefore encourage people to give to all.
If, as you say," Aren't they in the same business? Why on earth should Lama'an Achai object to the Kupa raising money for residents of RBS??"
Why don't their leaders practice what they preach and allow Lema'an Achai in their shuls as well?
the Kupa Shel Tzedaka has made tzedaka collecting a war in Ramat Bet Shemesh.
ReplyDeleteTheir campaigns have become more and more elaborate and cover ground everywhere
A war?? Aggressive campaigning perhaps. The only war is giving against not giving.
Especially since (from what I understand) Lema'an Achai is allowed NO presence (except for their helping people) to collect in many of the RBSA shuls.
If you have complaints against the policies of certain shuls (you want to verify that before repeating it), don't confuse that with having a complaint against the Kupa!
An example of said confusion: Why don't their leaders practice what they preach and allow Lema'an Achai in their shuls as well?
Hamasig,
ReplyDeleteYou said:
"An example of said confusion: Why don't their leaders practice what they preach and allow Lema'an Achai in their shuls as well?"
Not so much confusion.
I will only address one aspect of this.
A Lema'an Achai netzig who was collecting before Yom Kippur in a shul was asked not to collect in that particular shul...by an official netzig of the Kupa Shel Tzedaka.
I know the shul and the name of the netzig.
When official netzigim of an organization make policy and say things it becomes the responsibility of that organization. Period.
Also, Rabbonim of organizations are leaders. When they set policy in their shuls it is in fact connected to the organization.
musagim - even if that fellow is an official netzig, at the time was he talking as a netzig of the Kupa or as a netzig of the shul?
ReplyDeletejust because people have overlapping positions, does not mean they are at all times speaking for all organizations to which they are affiliated. Thi snetzigm even though he is a netzig of both the kupa and the shul, may have only been talking, at that moment, as a netzig of the shul. if the shul decided policy, the netzig is enforcing the policy regardless of whether as netzig of Kupa he agrees with that specific shull policy or not.
Hamasig's point is that the Kupa is not responsible for specific shul's policies. the shuls set those, not the Kupa.
It is disingenuous though, because it is all the same people setting policy, changing their hats as they see fit.
it is all the same people setting policy, changing their hats as they see fit
ReplyDeleteReally. The shul Rabonim are the same as the directors of the Kupa? I don't think that's true.
this specific netzig is not a shul rabbi. I am familiar with the incident, and it has happened "more than once"...
ReplyDeleteI have a bone to pick with one of these groups. Last Purim they organized some sort of fair for kids, but proceeded to play the same music for hours and hours. Was it Purim music? Not really. It was the tune from Yom kippur about Maarei Kohen. Was this because of Yom KePurim. To have this shoved in my ears for hours loudly on Purim nearly destroyed my whole Purim atmosphere. now I definitely would not give to them.
ReplyDeleteAny honest person who lives in RBSA and knows the "score" will tell you that there is an undercurrent within some of the charedi population against Lema'an Achai.
ReplyDeleteThe sad thing is that these people don't even know why they aren't supposed to like Lema'an Achai.
Lema'an Achai virtually doesn't exist in the Gra, Bais Tfilla,Pnei Shmuel Massas Mordechai, Chaniche HaYeshivos,Mvakshei HaShem, Mishkenos Yaakov just to name some.
Yet as a volunteer I know that many families from all of these kehillos are receiving help from Lema'an Achai.
Why do you think this is the case?
As Hamasig said "Aren't they in the same business?"
The answer is that many in our community just wish to have control over all aspects of life including tzedaka.
What a shame because the only ones who suffer are the poor.
Hamasig...if you feel kupa has the right to collect anywhere you should hold the same for Lema'an Achai.
And if you already hold that way you should do everything you can to insure they can collect anywhere.
"Lema'an Achai virtually doesn't exist in the Gra, Bais Tfilla,Pnei Shmuel Massas Mordechai, Chaniche HaYeshivos,Mvakshei HaShem, Mishkenos Yaakov just to name some."
ReplyDeleteCan someone explain why so many folks on this blog reserve such disgust for Beis Tefilla's cherem on Lema'an Achai?
Isn't Beis Tefilla simply doing the same as all those other haredi shuls??
Promoting their own organization, KST, while kicking out/banning LA, who are KST's competition?
Isn't that what the free market is all about?
No BTYA is not doing the same.
ReplyDeleteThe other shuls don't have an "official policy of ban" they just simply tear down or throw away LA material.
In BTYA it has "come from on high" that LA shouldn't be in the shul.
Ari..in any case isn't all of this reminiscent of Nazi Germany?
Free market is when everyone is ALLOWED to compete. here is good ole RBSA only certain organizations can solicit.
We're talking about tzedaka after all not kefira.
This has nothing to do with free market. Having two organizations conduct vigorous campaigns in the same shul is a waste of effort and resources. The same amount of money is collected, just divided between the two. For your information, the Kupa also helps families from every shul and every stripe.
ReplyDeleteIt makes more sense to have just major organization in each shul. The same amount is raised and it generates a sense of loyalty, keeping funds within the community. No one looses out. I have personally seen in a number of the a fore mentioned shuls plates on erev YK, with one plate full and the other almost empty. So what? Anyone who wants to give to the other fund due to politics or whatever else motivates him, he can find the address.
Hamasig,
ReplyDeleteYou may wish to glance over all of your posts on this thread. There is some contradiction here.
BTW...is it just me or do you believe that there should be only one organization.
If so which one....
Hamasig - if the reason for not allowing LA to collect in some shuls is as you say simply not to divide resources, as the same amount will be collected just split between two organizations, then why does Kupa collect in predominantly LA shuls? they are then causing that same waste of resources you say exist the other way.
ReplyDeleteAs well, do the shuls ban other organizations like Yad Tomech or various other organizations and random collected, because resources are being split?
...is it just me or do you believe
ReplyDeleteJust you.
I don't see objection in limiting a shul to one major local organization. I don't see any gain in having more than one IN EACH shul. I also don't see anything gained in banning any one organization. Naturally, people will give to their favorite kupa, and that will vary depending on the shul. The other one is wasting their time, and with any sense will stop trying to collect in place where they receive nothing. Nothing is gained by appearing to have stiff competition.
if the reason for not allowing LA to collect in some shuls is as you say simply not to divide resources
ReplyDeleteDidn't say it. I have no idea why someone would want to ban LA on tzedaka grounds.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIt is past 2:00 AM here in northern Europe, but I have been sitting here, reading this thread, and experiencing a whole series of differing emotions.
ReplyDeleteIt began with a feeling of empathy with the idea that RBS might yet be imbued with the idea of cosmetically improving its appearance and its public image. I then moved on to the comments section, where my mood rapidly went through feelings of astonishment, surprise, dismay, disgust and amusement.
I mentioned disgust because, for the life of me, I simply cannot comprehend how a small shetl in the Jerusalem Hills can have such a permanent atmosphere of mutual שנאת חינם almost permanently hovering over it.
My question to you all is "How is it that, three days after יום הכיפורים, when all Jews (of whatever religious shading or color) went around begging סליחה ומחילה from their neighbors for any and all perceived and real insults and injuries, you are fighting over whether to permit the Kupa or Lemaan Achai to collect in your shuls"?
Tonight בע"ה will see all Jews celebrating חג הסוכות - yet another opportunity to pray for the speedy arrival of משיח. My rebbe in cheder taught us that משיח will not come while we are arguing and bickering with each other.
Is it too much, therefore, to hope that פרנסי ואנ"ש ק"ק רמת בית שמש will find the time and the means to stop their futile arguing and bickering over which charities to support in their respective בתי כנסת?
You are making yourselves a laughing stock all over the Jewish world. Isn't it time that you stopped this childish nonsense and worked together?
Or is all that too much to ask for in the interests of the speedy arrival of משיח בן דוד?
חג שמח לכם ולכל בית ישראל
Darth - thank you. it seems whenever the words RBS, or tzedaka get mentioned, this whole fight gets dredged up again and again
ReplyDeletesee follow-up post at top of blog
ReplyDeleteDarth,
ReplyDeleteExcellent words!
Rafi,
The reason it gets dredged up IMHO is it is inconceivable as to how people are prejudice against tzedaka.
You know very well that there is an unwarranted "sina" against Lema'an Achai in RBSA.
Many people won't give and they have no idea why not except that their rabbi, neighbor, etc. says not to.
I'm certain that the very same nay sayer has no problem getting from Lema'an Achai.
This, Rafi, is why it is such a hot topic and emotional issue.
Darth - thank you. it seems whenever the words RBS, or tzedaka get mentioned, this whole fight gets dredged up again and again.
ReplyDeleteI was going to mention the other disgusting shanda that has made RBS a by-word for scandal and scorn recently, but miraculously it seems to have been swept under your municipal שטיח - for the time being, at least.