The vocational training center in Jerusalem for Haredim, the Michlala HaChareidit, has obviously always had separate classes for men and for women.. That is pretty basic for a haredi training center. According to Mynet, they also have a divider in the cafeteria providing a separation between men and women. It is not clear if this was always the case in the cafeteria or if it is a recent change, but it seems to me in context that it is a recent change. Some have complained because this cafeteria serves not just the haredi students of this michlala, but also students from other training centers including secular students, though it seems some of the complaints have also come from haredi students.
It does not bother me per se that they have a mechitza. It is a haredi training center and it seems pointless to separate the classrooms but then provide an opportunity for mingling in the cafeteria. What is disturbing is the continued trend towards extremism. As pointed out in the article, one of the haredi students complained saying there is not such a divider anywhere else - not in restaurants and other such places. The only thing similar is in the heart of Mea Shearim where there might be separate cash registers in a few stores and I know of Pizza Uri that many years ago recommended separate seating though there was no mechitza (I have not been there in many years so I do not know what they currently do).
It is possible that they felt that because they are already moving outside the kollel into "the world" perhaps they needed to have more fences up for protection, or maybe even just to show others that it is possible to get training while not compromising on the atmosphere, thereby encouraging others to take that step out to get schooled..
Any chance it's a mechitzah for milk and meat which got used for men and women?
ReplyDeleteAlthough obsessional, it does make logical sense and certainly could be supported on the grounds of consistency even though restaurants (where people who don't know each other, have nothing to talk about and in any case came in order to sit with other people) eat.
ReplyDeleteThe extremes to which this will go will eventually lead to the stopping of sexual relations, and a sperm sample will be artificially inseminated by a female doctor, leading to the complete stopping of all relations between men and women, and that will be against the halacha, but who cares? Chumras are more important than mitzvas.
ReplyDeleteThis is why I never join in when the shouts of "Draft the Chareidim!" are heard.
ReplyDeleteYou'd think that as they emerge from their little ghettos they'd leave some of their craziness behind but no, they bring it right out with them.
How much you wanna bet that eventually it'll be a requirement for certain kashrut certifications that restaurants they supervise have separate seating?
I'm not sure why you think this is extremism being manifest...? Didn't you write yourself, "It seems pointless to separate the classrooms but then provide an opportunity for mingling in the cafeteria?"
ReplyDeleteAs for the סתירה that you brought from restaurants, it is מתיישבת בקל according to Rafi (S)'s סברא. Chareidim (and many datiim leumiim) prefer separation in schools, because schools provide an atmosphere for getting to know other students that simply does not exist in other settings.
Meir S: No, this will not happen. Calm down, please.
because it really is extremism. it hasnt happened until now and it is this growing trend that is causing these individual instances to implement these changes.
ReplyDeleteextremism doesnt have to be illogical. it just changes the societal norms and implements the extreme.
As a student of the Michlala Chareidit (and a resident of RBS) I have some issues with this post. Firstly, Michlala Chareidit (in Malcha, located in the Gan Technologi) is under the auspicies of Bar-Ilan University, granting degrees -- BA's & MA's -- in various disciplines for the mens' & womens' divisions. It provides a framework toward professional development, advancement, and achievement. It is an academic institution, not a "vocational training center". (It is also a fact that a significant percent of the student body is comprised of members the dati-leumi population.) That is in regard to the misinformation implied.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, the womens division is located on the ground floor & the mens on the first floor. The cafeteria is accessable for the former from their classrooms and for the latter from an outside entrance. Essentially, there is a wall dividing the area into two cafeterias. There is no semblance of a mechitza; the cafeteria was established to meet the needs of the michlala. No one is barred from making use of its services.
YU and Stern,Torou College, HTC & TI in Chicago -- all have seperate campuses for obvious reasons as per the accepted social norms in the Orthodox world.The cafeteria is part and parcel of any such educational institution.
The Michlala, due to logistical, financial, and budgetary considerations (rental of campus space, lecturers teaching in both divisions, administrative offices etc.) houses both divisions.
One could hop on the train to Jerusalem and see for themselves the setup and then pass judgement on the situation.
It would seem to that those responsible for getting the Michlala up and running should be lauded for their efforts (Rabbanit Bar-Shalom, daughter of Rav Ovadia Yosef, among others) allowing Chareidim to pursue higher education in a 'frum' environment, and thereby contributing to society afterward in varying capacities.
Instead, others have found the opportunity to criticize, discovering the "extremism" of the Chareidim surrounding their lifestyles and sensitivities. We are accussed of bringing our "craziness" from the "ghetto" when chareidi guys and girls (teens & in their 20s, married and singles) opt to eat their tuna sandwiches in seperate cafeterias. Typical.
anon - thanks for the clarification and explanation
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, let's just be clear: YU has separate campuses for undergraduate men and women, (mostly) separate classes, and members of the opposite sex aren't allowed into each others' dormitories. Otherwise, men and women mix all the time- in the library, lounges, and, yes, cafeterias. It doesn't happen often because of the separate campuses, but no one blinks an eye when it does.
ReplyDelete