The plan is interesting, but I don't see how it would work. Lapid's plan is a plan that needs a lot of time for it to develop through it's stages. Lapid suggests that for a period of 5 years, all haredim will be exempted from the army automatically.
This automatic exemption given during the first five years of the plan is not like the current deferment system. This is a real exemption. Whoever wants to will be able to leave yeshiva and go study, get a job, open a business, travel, whatever. They even have the option of staying in yeshiva and learning. They will be exempted from the army with no need to look over their shoulders.
After the first five years have passed, every 18 year old will have to enlist in the IDF or join some sort of civil service program. Not every enlistee will be sent to an army base, rather, "the number of new IDF recruits will be determined according to the military's needs. Combat soldiers and troops belonging to units that support combat outfits will serve three years, while other soldiers will serve two years. Soldiers who serve three years will receive a minimum age salary as of their second year of service and will be eligible for an academic scholarship upon their release from the army. According to the plan, those who refuse to enlist will be denied of the right to academic or housing stipends. However, they will still receive Social Security payments." (source: Ynetnews)
So, for 5 years every haredi 18 year old (or older) will be exempted, and then after that all new 18 year olds will have to serve, or at least "risk" enlisting and possibly being accepted. It does not seem like a bad plan to me, but in Israel a lot can happen in 5 years. 5 years is a lot of time. We can go through 2 more election cycles, the law to deal with the haredim and the army can be changed 3 or 4 times by then.
Will the haredi parties like this law? I can see them accepting it at the outset, and getting all the exemptions, but then working to change the second stage. I see the second stage as being disastrous to the yeshiva world, from the yeshiva world perspective. I do not see how, with the current approach in the haredi world to the necessity of the yeshiva, they could possibly agree to such a plan willingly.
Some might see the first stage as a trojan horse of sorts. It looks good, and beneficial to the haredim. A mass exemption. People can do what they want. No more worrying about the army, which is generally blamed for many if the ills in the haredi community. because they are constantly worried about the army situation, they cannot really do anything except stay in yeshiva. This will allow them to do whatever it is that they really want to be doing. To me that sounds great. People can choose. Those who want to choose yeshiva, will be able to, and those who want to choose other options will be able to. Others, on the other hand, might see this as giving people too much freedom of choice. It is too risky, because one never knows what any given person might choose. the yeshivas do stand risking a lot, once the public is not beholden to them for providing a safe haven from army service.
What do they say in the field of law? Never ask a question you don't already know the answer to. Giving that freedom to people might be considered risky, if they don't know what the people will choose. I can see this being opposed for this very reason.
It's only Yair Lapid suggesting it anyway, so it's not likely to happen. He does not have enough power to get something this big through the political wheelings and dealings, though I imagine he is hoping to amass enough to do so..
------------------------------------------------------
Reach thousands of readers with your ad by advertising on Life in Israel
------------------------------------------------------
How do you define "charedi"?
ReplyDeleteJust like yeshiva exemptions generate "yeshiva students", charedi exemptions will generate "charedim".
Are they going to have some sort of religious police to make sure they stay charedi?
I guess that they already have something similar for the b'not sherut.
probably it will be regulated the same way everything else is. it will probably require a statement approved and signed by a rabbi or rosh yeshiva. maybe there will be a list of yeshivas approved to give such certification and exemption.
DeleteA few questions this raises:
ReplyDelete1. If they are not required to enroll in Yeshiva to get the exemption then how will it be defined who gets the exemption. Like the hatzhara currently in place for girls? Will this then need to be policed?
2. Is he proposing then to get rid of the exemption for girls and force them to do at least sherut leumi for two years? This will affect the DL community as well where many girls do only one year because they can and the haredi community will no doubt make this yehareg ve-al ya'avor to keep the full exemption.
3. Will the sherut leumi then be run by the government and not by amutot?
4. What about Hesder or even more so the hsder Merkaz which are basically a watered down torato omanuto used by the DL and Hardal community in order to avoid full draft? Will we see new Haredi yeshivot hesder or the end of DL yeshivot hesder?
he hasnt gone into so much detail, but this is my best guess:
Delete1. I wondered that too. I dont know, but I dont think it is such a big deal. If they are giving wholesale exemptions, they probably wont care if they exempt a few too many people.
2. where do you see that implied? I dont see why the girls system couldnt remain as it is now, or also have girls be granted the same wholesale exemption for being in haredi schools.
3. I imagine so. another reason they will oppose the idea.
4. possibly. I imagine this project would work through the yeshivot with some administration being established that would declare qualification. The yeshivot hesder are there to allow the yeshiva students who want to serve in the army but also learn to do so. Why would that arrangement have to end? Even now they could theoretically set up yeshivot haredi-style with no army, if they wanted to. They dont want to.
Not many people talk about it, but after the exemption for torato omanuto, I think exemption for _reigious_ women needs to end. The option of sherut leumi should be opened to girls who cannot or will not sign the hatzhara and the girls who sign it should be forced to do sherut leumi for two years like everybody else.
ReplyDeleteAs for yeshivot hesder, what equality is there in forcing guys who cannot, will not or just don't want to go to yeshiva and haredim to do 3 years service while allowing the guys who sign up for hesder to do only a year and a half (as long as they stay in yeshiva for the prescribed time)? Doesn't that remind you a bit of the haredi torato omanuto get-out clause, just watered down a bit? Either everyone should have the option or nobody.
I hear. makes sense to me to cancel it.
Deleteabout the hesder, I misunderstood you. I thought you were referring to the first stage exemption. I see the problem you describe. if the plan should be passed, I imagine there will be all sorts of groups trying to work out similar arrangement, declaring it unfair and discriminatory. i can even see it going to the Supreme Court
No one expects full equality. Lapid himself proposed having some do 3 years and other do 2 years. Thus I don't see Hesder becoming a problem. The difference between doing no army service whatsoever and doing a 5-year program (including 1.5 years in the army) and then miluim for the rest of your life, with the rest of the country, is significant.
DeleteThat said, as a Hesdernik, I was very uncomfortable doing the shorter time. Until you've been in the army and realize how tough it is for most people (in terms of not wanting to be there), you just can't identify with this.
BTW, I don't understand why everyone's talking about national service as an acceptable alternative. I don't see how you can make these parallel paths. Army service is so much thought and dangerous that I don't see how one group could get exempted from it en masse and just drive ambulances etc.
I meant army service is so much 'tougher'.
DeleteIn general, I think Lapid has the right idea. I just wonder whether 5 years is close to enough and whether the peer pressure, including the need to get a good shidduch, in the Charedi world will allow the Charedim to take advantage of this. This definitely makes it easier for them than the Tal Law but I don't know if this will be enough. They already appear to be circling their wagons.
ReplyDeletei've heard rabbanim and chareidi mks say (in the past) that they oppose the idea of a general exemption for the very reason that lapid wants it.
ReplyDeleteFrom today's YNet. Talli Farkash gives reasons why the plan won't work and suggests an alternative: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4223820,00.html
ReplyDeleteshe makes some good points, some points are questionable. for example if the army really does want to expand the number of battalions serving on the egyptian border, that requires bodies. maybe not 60,000, but yes it will demand more soldiers in the field.
Deleteanyway, IMO if the non-chareidim are serious about changing the status quo (and i am not sure if the DLs are serious*) they would come together and figure out a plan between themselves and then work it out with the frum. the way they are doing it now, with every idiot politician giving hsi own plan, dooms the whole idea.
*even someone like rav sherlo doesn't believe in forcing the chareidim by law, only social pressure and extra benefits to those who serve. that hasn't worked and will never work. there will always be an atias or gafni to make sure that the chareidim get the money.
the draft deferral is what enabled chareidi society to get to where it is today, for better or worse, only that deferral. take it away or be content with things continuing.
Moshe Feiglin's plan of abolishing the draft and turning it into a professional army is a compelling one (I know it is not really his idea and has been around for years, but he is pushing ti now seriously). I dont have an opinion on if that is really a system that will work in our country that faces serious threats, as I dont know enough, but it seems to be an idea that has not been dismissed outright as unfeasible..
ReplyDeleteso, on the assmption that the idea is a real possibility to consider, I think that is a reasonable plan.
I'm impressed just by the fact that Lapid has (a) come up with an original idea, whatever its merits or demerits, and (b) he didn't choose the path of direct conflict, which his unlamented father would probably have done.
ReplyDeleteAs you mention, Feiglin has been pushing to scrap conscription altogether, and I prefer that plan, but I give credit to Lapid at least for trying to find a win-win solution rather than going the route of coercion and conflict.
I think Feiglin's idea sounds good on the surface, but I think if they scrapped the draft, it could lead to a situation where people feel like friarim by going in the army. I've spoken to draft-age kids who feel that although they are motivated to serve in combat units now, it's because as long as they have to serve, you want to serve in the most elite unit you can, but if they didn't have to serve, they would skip it altogether and get on with their lives.
ReplyDeleteI agree Baruch, but it must be taking into consideration that part of his plan includes paying these professional soldiers good salaries. that might be something that attracts people to sign up/.
ReplyDeleteTrue - but could Israel afford to pay its army the way the US does? Also, the professional army model may work for the US, where the services require a much smaller percentage of the population. But I think our needs our different here. We need lots of manpower that doesn't necessarily need to be elite or motivated, just needs to fill spaces at all the machsomim, and to be trained and ready just in case.
DeleteBaruch - anyone with the attitude of "I'm not a sucker" is probably not a good candidate to have in the army anyway. If the army was voluntary, you'd have a lot more highly motivated people who ideologically want to defend Israel from its enemies. People like the miluimnikim who reported for duty in Lebanon II and Cast Lead despite not having been called up. Rather have fewer people defending the country, with a positive attitude, than more people who see national service as a burden that they'd rather skive out of.
ReplyDeleteHi Shaul - I hear what you're saying, but I don't agree. The same people I've heard this from also say they would run to serve in case of a war. I think that's how most people think - call me if you need me, but meanwhile, I've got other things to do. I think we olim tend to overestimate the idealism of others around us - not a knock on them or us, just human nature. And three years of mostly boring drudgery, standing at mashsomim, endless training, and that type of stuff, is something I think a person has to be really idealistic to actually want to do.
ReplyDeleteCould someone please clarify for me how the system currently works. If someone doesn't do any army service, how are they 'prevented' from joining the job market? Is it just that they come off poorly in interviews against other candidates, or is there a real mechanism that stops them from working?
ReplyDeleteAnd if so, is this something that Olim are aware of when they send their children to charedi schools here? All those Anglo-charedi lawyers, accountants, doctors etc. Are they basically 'removing' their children from the workforce by choosing a lifestyle that discourages army service?
1) it is illegal for someone to work without having done the army or having received a patur (permission not serve). i don't know what is the exact penalty in law, but if the army catches someone working, the person can be charged under law.
Delete2) yes the olim are aware of it. they are joining a system here.
every 18 year old currently is drafted to the army. Some people get exemptions for a variety of reasons - health, psychological, exceptional talent in specific areas, etc.
ReplyDeletestudents in yeshiva are given deferements. their army service is deferred until they leave yeshiva. They then will have to serve. the amount of time they will serve will depend upon what age and their marital and family status. Meaning, a yeshiva guy can be in yeshiva until 40 years old with 8 kids - if he leaves then he probably wont do army service as they will likely exempt him at that point. but what kind of training or education will he get at age 40?
A 20 year old leaving yeshiva cannot go get a job or go to college. he will have to get cleared by the army. At age 20 with no kids, or even with a few at 25, he will have to do some sort of army service.
a yeshiva student could leave yeshiva at any point, but he will have to deal with the army. that keeps a lot of people in yeshiva longer than they would be otherwise.
This is what makes Lapid's idea so interesting. Show me the incentive, and I'll predict the behavior. Right now, Charedim who want to avoid the army are forced to be lifelong yeshiva/kollel students, which suits the extremists who dictate Charedi social policy just fine, and incidentally practically guarantees a lifetime of poverty.
ReplyDeleteLet's say you had to apply a blanket exemption to anyone who asked to study in Yeshiva for 5 years instead. And then give excellent financial incentives to people who complete some form of national service (including the army). What will happen?
Firstly, tens of thousands of jungerleit who have done their 5 years already will get up and go try find gainful employment. Nobody wants to live a life of poverty. I can see the askanim plastering pashkevillin on every vertical surface they can find, schreiing gevalt about the terrible churban that will hit the Torah world if people leave the Beis Midrash. You won't see any grand rebellion; it'll just be a steady stream of individuals quietly deciding for themselves, now that they can legally find gainful employment and they have some hope of not being desperately poor for the rest of their lives, and voting with their feet.
That will take a few years to make itself felt. In 5 years you have the beginnings of a cultural shift, whereby Charedim will be more commonly found in the workplace, and there will necessarily be less of a social stigma. And as these barriers are broken down, and you start seeing that army graduates get, say, special tax breaks or government subsidized housing loans, maybe Nachal Charedi starts looking more attractive, especially since the people screaming against Nachal Charedi are the same crackpots who've been telling us not to work, and live lives of eternal poverty.
Hmmm... makes for some interesting scenarios... what do you think?
I agree. It's an interesting idea, and maybe it will work out the way you say. The major drawback that I see is that this five year provision gives the haredi parties five years to try to overturn it. It would be nice to get this issue settled and out of politics once and for all. But on the other hard, once the law is passed, it would put the burden on the government to undo it, which would be much harder politically than just riding with the Tal law, which they have been doing since Barak was forced to pass the Tal law to save his floundering government.
Delete