Someone told over this story, and it makes one wonder what Rav Sonnenfeld would have said to do in a situation similar to that of the Ulpana of Beit El (it's a "what if" discussion in regards to today, but it is a story that really happened back then).
An Arab Siekh living in Lifta in Jerusalem owned the land that has since become Mea Shearim. A group of Jews decided to join together and buy the land to build for themselves houses. 100 families got together to form the group and buy the land (ergo the name "Mea Shearim), purchasing 170 dunam of property upon which to build the 100 homes.
When planning the construction, they realized the land they had purchased was still not large enough for the number of homes they had planned to build. So, they came up with a plan. Every night a few people would go out and move the fence, sometimes to the west and sometimes to the south.
the Siekh did not realize, as he did not live there. he never bothered measuring, and he did not notice the fence being moved little by little.
One of the Jews in the group thought it might be wrong to do that and decided to ask Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, the rav of Yerushalayim at the time, if it was allowed to steal the land in that manner from the Arab.
Rav Sonnenfeld's answer was that "we are not stealing the land, but we are redeeming it. We paid the Arab, but that is because we are in exile and have no choice. But the land is not his!" He thereby justified the activity that led to the building of Mea Shearim.
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Even including streets and other public areas, 1.7 dunams per family (1700 sqm) wasn't enough?
ReplyDeleteI guess not. they werent building large apartment buildings, and while the houses there are not large, they also have courtyards..
ReplyDeleteJust curious what the source of this story is. I think you have to treat stories like this with a healthy dose of skepticism, just like tznius stories. Too many agendas involved.
ReplyDeleteAssuming it's true, great story.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, VERY few in the gov't or for that matter, rabbis who receive there salaries from the gov't, who actually give a rat's tuchus about halakhah.
Sad, but true.
If they did, then I assure we'd still be in Azza, the Sinai, and they would be a lot less Arabs (and Christians) residing in Israel.
the Ladaat article mentions the name of the person who told the story. I dont know if this is a "well known" story or something he told over that was not previously known, or where he got it from.
ReplyDeleteI think people should be worried, in today's climate, that somebody might read the story and create a political crisis demanding the demolition or relocation of Mea Shearim due to it being built on stolen property
Um, so are we saying that Arabs do not have the right to purchase land in Israel and that stealing from them, especially if done covertly, is okay?
ReplyDeleteAnd then there's the irony - one group of Israeli-flag burning folks buy the land from another group.
1. Looks pretty clear to me that no, we most certainly do not:
ReplyDeleteמשנה תורה הלכות עבודה זרה פרק י,ד [ג] אין מוכרין להם בתים ושדות, בארץ ישראל
2. Please remember that the Torah is not politically-correct nor automatically in line with Western values, sensibilities and laws.
3. Using Ironheart's suggested logic, we should give back North Tel-Aviv (God forbid). ;-)
4. Stealing? (sigh) Please see no. 2 above.
I'm with MGI. This mentality doesn't make for a very healthy society. It's similar rationalizations that many so-called "frum" folks use to evade taxes.
ReplyDeleteMenachem, Do you follow halakha? I am far from perfect, but I do my best to. That's my mentality. Western mentality is irrelevant to my life, unless I am interested 1) What the goyim are up to, or 2) How to help my fellow Jews get out of galuth, both physically and spiritually.
ReplyDeleteEsser Agaroth, let's consider the following:
ReplyDelete1) You must distinguish between national and personal ownership of land. Yes, all the land belongs to the Jewish people and private Jewish landowners should not sell to Gentiles but in this case we are dealing with an Arab who bought the land from someone, probably not a Jew. Now Jews come along and engage in a personal transaction with him. Yes, from a national point of view we can say to the Arab "You never should have had ownership in the first place!" but from a private point of view he had a title and deed issued by the authorities of the day and from his perspective these folks are, on a personal level since they are not the agents of the halachic state of Israel, stealing from him. There is no kiddush HaShem in this no matter how nationalistic one might be.
Rafi, let me get this straight... the biggest problem with this is that someone might have a claim to relocate mea sheariim?
ReplyDeleteseems like most every post is in agreement that theft is not theft if your god tells you so.
yay!
Given my past actions it turns out I'm charedi.
halacha says it is forbidden to steal from a non-Jew.
ReplyDeletequestion is who owns th land. If a Jew owned it, and the non-Jew just took it, it is stolen by the non-Jew, so a Jew can take it back. That is how I understand what Rav Sonnenfeld was saying. I have no idea if historically that is correct or not - maybe throughout the years and centuries the non-Jews had bought the land.
Two questions for Esser Agaroth:
ReplyDelete1. What the Me'ah She'arim people did in this story is the simple pshat of hasagat gvul:
לֹא תַסִּיג גְּבוּל רֵעֲךָ אֲשֶׁר גָּבְלוּ רִאשֹׁנִים בְּנַחֲלָתְךָ אֲשֶׁר תִּנְחַל בָּאָרֶץ אֲשֶׁר יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ נֹתֵן לְךָ לְרִשְׁתָּהּ. Basically, the passuk is about moving a fence to increase you lot size.
2. What are we to make of the gemarah in Gittin 8b, allowing certain actions on Shabbat to aid in buying land in Israel from non-Jews? Why the need to pay for it at all, if it is all "ours" already?
You can add whatever you want to his comment: but he didn't say or imply any of that. Did he do even a lick of research or imply that he had any knowledge of the issue?
ReplyDeletenope.
He was asked if stealing land from an Arab was ok and he said, yes. That's the story.
Which is fine by me. Don't get me wrong. I am not knocking this rabbi at all: I redeem things all the time.
I was simply taken aback by the story and by the acceptance and admiration of the story by supposedly religious folk.
read again "we are not stealing the land, but we are redeeming it. We paid the Arab, but that is because we are in exile and have no choice. But the land is not his!"
ReplyDeletethe land is ours, and when we have to pay for it, so be it. but when we can get it back without paying for it, it is ours and it is not theft.
it might be a justification, it might have been his real opinion. I know not.
Shmilda, Re'eh is not a non-Jew. I believe that the suggiyah you point out is related to when we are in a position when we may only acquire land in Eretz Yisrael through purchase (like when goyim are in control, even when Avraham, Ya'aqov, and David purchased land). When we are in (theoretical?) control of the land/milhemeth misswah/milhemeth reshuth, then a different paradigm applies. BTW, interestingly enough, the qinyan (but not the final purchase) was made on Shabbath to (re)acquire Me'ah She'arim.
ReplyDeleteRafi pointed out correctly that גזל לגויים איסור חמור, but who says it's theirs in the first place. The same was pointed out with the original "controversy" (שנת שמיטה תשס"א) over which olives may be picked in the Shomron and Yehudah. Where are the documents that say that the trees (or land) belongs to them in the first place?
MGI, Um,...where are your sources? I see your logic, but you're not backing it up with sources, thus I can only assume that you are throwing around QHaShem, due to how you personally feel about the matter. Pissing the goyim off is not alway a Hillul HaShem.
1. Maybe the Arab should be compensated, as in the U. S. gov't's right to eminent domain (a western concept, that perhaps you can relate to). 2. OTOH, some Rabbanim hold that we are indeed in a milhemeth misswah, and thus we are entitled to conquering all of Yehudah and Shomron, and may take booty to boot (no pun intended).
The following information about the history of Meah Shearim cast serious doubt on the veracity of the story. It is important to remember that the original neighborhood of Meah Shearim was very small.
ReplyDelete1. A total of 32.5 dunam was bought, apparently, although there is no solid proof, from residents of Liftah.
2. The land was purchased in three installments and building began in 1874.
3. Rabbi Sonnenfled first arrived in Palestine in 1873.
4. Rabbi Sonnenfeld was involved with the building of the Batei Ungarin in 1891.
5. There was very active non-Jewish participation, both Arab and Anglo-Protestant, of the planning and building of Meah Shearim, so if it wasn't for non-Jews Meah Shearim probably wouldn't exist.
If I have more time later, I'll see what I can find.
I looked in Amnon Cohen's book on Jews in Muslim Courts in the 19th c. (in Hebrew) and he has all the goods about the purchase of the land on which Meah Shearim was built. Between 1874-6 a total of eight purchases were made from dozens of residents of Lifta for the original land of Meah Shearim and some surrounding plots. There is even a document of a Jew selling some of the land in the area to an Arab. If Jews thought that it was OK to steal land from Arabs they didn't do a very good job.
ReplyDeletethank you Michael
ReplyDeleteso did the story happen or not?
ReplyDeletewas it ok to redeem meah sheariim from arabs, and thus also ok to redeem ulpana or not?
Because that's the real question here: not what is legal based on a standard of justice and equality, but can we get what we want regardless of the expense to others and feel good about it too because we do it in the name of god.
I think people are missing out on a very important fact. The land of Israel can only be purchased 70 years at a time. After 70 years, the land goes back to the ownership of the tribes.
ReplyDeleteYou should read the passages in Yirmiahu about him redeeming his family's land as Jerusalem is being Conquered.
first of all, you mean 50 years. secondly yovel is not in operation and hasn't been for at least 2500 years
DeleteYovel is always in operation. There is nothing in the Torah that says it stops being in operation. If you decide to act on it or not, is a different question.
DeleteAgain, read Yermiahu.
For 2500 years (more?) the plurality of Jews lived outside of Israel... now they live inside of Israel. Things change, the old becomes new again.
Anon... the native americans felt something similar... good luck with that.
ReplyDeleteI think The Way may be on to something. If we're going to steal, I think it's probably better to just steal, and not drag in maybe it did maybe it didn't happen stories about rabbis to try to make the stealing seem frum.
DeleteThe native Americans were cheated and exploited. With the Israeli government having final ownership with most the land of Israel, the land is effectively in the hands of the tribes.
DeleteSo, so far, my luck has been going strong.
anon, yes, Israel has had good luck with most of the land, no argument, I thought we were talking about ulpana vis a vie mea sheariim.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with stealing cheating and exploiting to get the land, or more land... But I am happy to admit that I think most people have no problem with that in most facets of life. I don't see why we need to couch our behavior in religiosity. Have the self-awareness and conviction of your desires to do what you do without pretending that you serve a higher purpose.
anon, yes, Israel has had good luck with most of the land, no argument, I thought we were talking about ulpana vis a vie mea sheariim.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with stealing cheating and exploiting to get the land, or more land... But I am happy to admit that I think most people have no problem with that in most facets of life. I don't see why we need to couch our behavior in religiosity. Have the self-awareness and conviction of your desires to do what you do without pretending that you serve a higher purpose.
I do have a problem with stealing cheating and exploiting.
Deletewell so do I. But with my set of standards and yours, it's not called cheating and exploiting. We can call it obeying god's law over man's... or in my case, what I want is more important than man's law for a different reason than why what you want is more important than man's law.
ReplyDeleteso if I have to steal or cheat to get what I want, I don't need to call it that. I am simply devout in my desires.
The way, you are trolling.
ReplyDeleteWho's laws are more important. The Britsh laws, the ottoman laws, the Israel laws, the Talmud's laws, the Muslim laws, the PA laws?
You have 5 or 6 competing law systems when it comes to land purchasing and rights in Israel.
exactly anon... everyone has laws so all laws are equal and the same and we should get to pick and choose which to adhere to and when. This way, it's not cheating or exploiting, it's I'm adhering to talmudic law... if that doesn't fit, than I'm adhering to natural law, if that doesn't fit , than I'm adhering to modern Israeli law.
ReplyDeleteAfter all, why should one adhere to the law of the land at a given time when there are so many other forms of law available?
We see this all the time when orthodox people/groups/rabbis, insist on using a beit din until they turn to a civl court for redress... or what some may call stealing under some godless secular law we can call redeeming under god's law. Which God you may ask? Well, just like their are lots of legal systems to choose from there are loads of theocratic systems to choose from.
or as Sai Baba said (the yogi whose influence coined the expression saibaba) I am God and you are also god. The difference is, I am aware that I am god while you may not yet have had that realization.
if the beis din is recognized by the State, what is wrong with using a beis din? the legal status of the beis din is almost always that of arbitration, and pretty much anybody can be an arbitrator if it is agreeable to both sides in a dispute.
ReplyDeleteThe Way,... What the hell are you talking about?
ReplyDeleteDo you even know the legal status of things in Israel or do you just like talking out of your ass?
Some people bought property from the ottomans, some from the British, some from Israel. At the same time, the Jewish people were fighting against the Ottomans, and the British to establish a renewed Jewish country based on our claim that Israel was forcefully and illegally taken away from us by the Romans, Greeks, Persians or Babylonians depending on the year. The whole question of land ownership, is a debate about which legal system is in affect in Israel.
You clearly have no clue what's going on.
I forgot to include the Crusaders, the Marduks, the Ottomans, the British, and about 15 other groups that have illegally changed the rules of who can and who can not own land in Israel over the past 2,000 years.
DeleteRafi - not talking about leglity of beit din per se, rather the attitude of saying that one should use one system and then switching when the switching is good. You've posted such articles on this blog.
ReplyDeleteAnon, we don't have to go back all 2000 years. And while there may be much debate about various plots of lands, in some cases, the legal aspects of the case are not in dispute and the debate is, should we redeem this land or not. The Ulpana case is one such example. So perhaps I have a bit of a clue.