Interestingly enough, MK Moshe Feiglin (Likud Beyteynu) took part in a conversation/interview on the Facebook page of an organization called "Kamocha" - an organization for "religious orthodox homosexuals".
You can see the entire interview on the FB page (linked above) and on the website.. (the interview covered, briefly, many topics, not all connected to issues of homosexuality)
One question asked was up until what task would you be prepared to support a religious homosexual candidate? Mayor? MK? Prime Minister?
Feiglin's answer was "everything (even a rav), except for the role of prime minister".
Asked but not answered was "why not prime minister?" - humorously suggesting that maybe it is because Feiglin wants that job for himself..
The question remains though, why not? If you don't support the freedom of a homosexual to hold public roles, at all, I disagree but I understand the position. If you do support the holding of public roles, why draw the line in that way? Why can he be everything except prime minister? what's special about the prime ministerial role that MK Feiglin thinks a homosexual cannot fulfill properly, while he can fulfill any other role in society?
I don't get it.
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What would be the rationale for not allowing a homosexual to hold public roles?
ReplyDeleteSome people think that they are deviants and shouldn't be in public positions
DeleteBecause a major component of Moshe Feiglin's platform is family values. Freedom for the individual, yes. Erosion of the fabric of society to please one sector, no.
ReplyDeleteHow does that work when giving them every position in the country except for one? Why is pm an erosion of society but not mayor or rabbi or minister of defense of any other?
DeleteYou are correct that if homosexuals were in every single position out there except Prime Minister, family values would have long eroded anyway. But let's assume that demographic statistics are accurate and it's a minority - so it wouldn't be "every position except..."; rather, it would be a few positions at various levels. Except never PM because that's the top of the leadership. At least that's how I'm reading it.
DeleteHow can you be a religious homosexual? Without getting into the subject of right and wrong, being religious, at least outwardly, means you are trying to keep all the mitzvot. Sure, few of us a tzaddikim, but then again, few of us are also blatantly out there if we have shortcomings. Being a 'visible' homosexual, means you are 'out there' with at least one of the averot of the Torah, Being homosexual does not mean just living with a guy, any one can do that. Being homosexual means you like doing it with guys.
ReplyDeleteBeing a homosexual rabbi means you are risking looking like a hypocrite.
That he chose to divert from the Torah's stance, irrespective of who serves as what, reflects his confusion of values.
ReplyDeleteWhat does "homosexual" mean? Sorry, but the man is attracted to other men, yet refrains any and all behavior which is assur, what is he doing wrong?
DeleteEven if he has a "roommate," are we allowed to assume anything assur is taking place? I think not.
An old friend of mine took a ba'al lashon hara to Beis Din in the UK, about 17 years ago. He won. He was accused of being homosexual, even though there wasn't any real evidence.
The Beis ruled almost entirely on the bases of hil. shemirath lashon:
1. no one may assume the prohibited behaviors are taking place between to male roommates. (my friend didn't even have one. This was including in the ruling, nonetheless.)
2. no one may make assumptions regarding one's sexual behaviors.
3. no one may take away any kavods in schul, based on assumptions. However,...
4. 2 men may not express affection for one another in public more than is acceptable in a given community.
This case was the basis for HaDayan Rabbi Chaim Rappaport's book Homosexuality and Halakhah. Rabbi Rappaport is the Av Beis Din of the Federation Beis Din in London.
One can ask the question, is it tnanu'a to "come out?" Well, I would say not. However, what if there is a rav who is open about his background, in order to guide others toward teshuvah, by being an example?
If one is a known avaryan (witnesses?), sure he has no business being a rav. But, the same goes for plenty of aveiros, as well.
What if a "rav" refrains from mishkav zachar, which according to Rash"i is only one particular behavior? Is he doing anything worse than the unfortunate number of "Rabbis" known to sleep around, including committing adultery?
Partly I'm just playing a little devil's advocate. But, partly, I have seen too many men suffer, lose jobs, lose families and custody of children, based entirely on assumptions.
I know that's not the point Josh nor Vangurad was making. However, it is important to get our semantics right, definitions such as "homosexual" and "Torah's stance." I believe that one cold easily argue that the Torah's stance is against behaviors, and not so clear regarding feelings.
"Being homosexual means you like doing it with guys." True, but there is a difference between actually doing it, and working to at least refrain from doing it.
We should all be trying to work on our midot, and again, I don't think there is an issue about two guys living together in a platonic relationship, forever, and I'm not one to make assumptions about that and what they do at night, but correct me if I'm wrong, that does not make someone homosexual either. I am under the impression that someone who 'becomes' or comes out of the closet and describes themselves as homosexual wants to catalog himself as sleeping with guys, the very least - in monogamous stable relationships.
DeleteIs it okay for a rabbi or a PM to proclaim that they live with another partner? What if they also proclaimed that they weren't homosexual and we accepted that? I'm asking, does halacha (besides promoting men-women) have anything seriously against men living together in platonic relationships? Let's go even further - would the Jewish world accept a Jewish celibate rabbi? Would the general public accept a celibate PM?
All good questions. I still think I answered a few of them, at least theoretically.
DeleteA rabbi as a symbol, someone to emulate? Yes, ideally, and thus should not only not be living with a man, but married, and having children, IY"H.
I also addressed the issue of non-idealistic situations, which are few and far between. Perhaps, since we are living in difficult and confusing times.
I know a few "gay" rabbis, and I can tell you that they have saved lives, prevented suicides, encourage young, and not so young Jews to keep at least the misswoth that they can (מצוה גוררת מצוה), leading to more, and, yes, even helped some confused kids work through some issues, and get married and have a Torah observant family..
Are these "gay" rabbis the ideal? No, of course, not. But, in the upside-down world in which we live where Greek, Roman, and "free love" EU influences are rampant within Israel, it is possible (b'di avad) that such men might be able to reach Jews and situations, that others cannot.
Furthermore, I am less willing to condemn these rabbis who are at least honest, and being an example of improving themselves and helping those around them than the "heterosexual" rabbis, doing damage to are young, and not so young men. I won't list specific examples here.
Here is another example:
When the organization "Children of the Night" was founded in LA in the 1980's to help get kids off the streets, out of prostitution rings and into healthier environments, the biggest assistance cam from older prostitutes. Most continued living in the world of prostitution, but does this lessen the good that they did by (literally) saving lives.
The question here is who does Moshe Feiglin see when he says "gay rabbi?" Since he's religious man, I've met and davened in the minyanim with him, and have heard him speak from his perspective of Torah, I give him the benefit of the doubt, and suggest that he might see the role of such rabbis in similar light as I do.
I don't think I answered your question regarding halakha, save for my understanding of the hil. shemirath lashon, and may be mistaken in this understanding anyway.
I'm not sure of the answer, only suggesting that one way of living ones life is preferable over others, as an example to emulate.
Yet, I rabbi who says he is gay, speaks out against anal sex (al pi Rash"i), if not more, and shows Jewish youth that any current identification as this, that or the other, does not have to mean throwing away ones kippah, can also make a huge and important impression.