I did not ask a rabbi in advance (or since) if it is ok or if it is a problem to watch this, as I do not see any halachic problem with it, though I might be wrong about that. Obviously, I was there as a tourist and not as a participant.
The Shomronim, or Samaritans, live in mostly two communities - one in Holon and the main community being in the Shomronim village near Shchem on Har Grizim. The community altogether numbers 800 people. When asked how they can survive with just 800 people, and in 50 years won't they be completely gone, they answered that in 1917 they were just 150 people and people said the same thing then, but now in 2014 they are 800 people.
We got there early enough to wander around a bit. There are some misconceptions about the Shomronim. For example, in the past I had seen pictures from other people who went, and one thing always pointed out is the "mezuza" on the outside wall of the house - a flat tablet embedded into the wall with something engraved on it. That is incorrect, according to what we were told on Sunday afternoon. We noticed such a tablet on the wall outside a house, and said, that is the mezuza. One of the Shomronim passing by said that is not correct. he explained the mezuza is inside the door, not on the outside. That tablet is similar to a "birkat habayit" - he read it to us and, according to what he said it is a blessing for the house and says who built the house (not the kabblan, but who the head of the house was) and in what year.
The Shomronim are very friendly people and very happy to talk about their customs, traditions, and lifestyle. We spoke, throughout the evening, in great length to a number of different Shomronim. Most Shomronim speak 4 languages: English, Hebrew, Arabic and Shomronite (ancient Hebrew which sounds like a mixture of Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic). Their books and Torahs are written in Hebrew, but using ancient Hebrew script - they never made the switch to Ashurit script like we did. They read the religious texts in ancient Hebrew which sounds like some mixture of Arabic and Yemenite - if you listen carefully you can make out some of the words. They are fully integrated into Israeli society, in the sense that they serve in the army, they go to school, they work in most professions.. they say they have no crime rate in their community and no intermarriage with non-Jews, though some do marry Jews (though not many).
When we asked "Ata Yehudi?" - are you Jewish? - the answer was not a straight yes or no. The answer was - do you know why you are called "yehudi"? It is because you are from the Tribe of Judah. We are not yehudim because we are not form Yehuda, they each answered. To explain, they claim to be from the tribes of Menashe and Efraim (in addition to their Kihanim and Leviim from the tribe of Levi), and are therefore part of bnei yisrael, but not yehudim.
They do not wear tefillin and tzitzit, at least not on a daily basis. They are not against it, but consider it too spiritual. They do separate truma and maaser and give it as obligated, to the kohen, levite, etc. It was strange as I always thought they are pure "written torah" people, but it seems they do have some traditions of their own that are oral traditions, on how to do things.
They claim they stuck with the original torah and they perform it exactly as described in the torah, and have done so for thousands of years, while it is us, the yehudim, who changed things. According to them, "your rabbis" made changes when they wanted to - for eexample, King david was from a Moabite woman, as the rabbis explained a Moabite cannot become Jewish and marry into the community, but a Moabite woman can, because it says "Moavi" and they darshan "moavi v'lo moavia". So, the Shomroni said, is your wife allowed to have an extramarital affair because it says "lo tinaf" but does not say "lo tinafi"?
They shechted their korbanot pesach in what was like a ditch lined with stone. They said that is the mizbeiach. When I asked how come the altar isnt a raised structure, they explained that there are different types of altars. some are structures, like the mizbeiach haktoret, while the mizbeiach adama is like this. On the other hand, they did use large skewers made of pomegranate wood for holding and burning the slaughtered lambs, which if I am not mistaken is only mentioned in tradition and the oral Torah. They also smeared a dab of blood on their foreheads immediately after slaughtering the korban. I asked why and did not get a good explanation - something about being similar to the smearing of blood on the lintel and doorposts.
The people we spoke to were very smart and knowledgeable. they knew Tanach better than me (not saying much) - they knew it perfectly, quoting from all parts. They also knew many of our traditions (of the ones that came up in the discussions) and sources for them.
They believe that that area is holy. Har Grizim is where the brachot were given to the children of Israel, and obviously that makes it holy. There is no mention in the Torah of Jerusalem, and no mikdash. Har Grizim is the holiest place mentioned in the Torah.
feel free to ask questions about the Shomronim in the comments, and if I have answers I will respond. We chatted with a number of them over the course of the evening and got a lot of information, so I might be able to tell over what I heard, and it might answer your questions.
Here are pictures from the event, in no particular order. I did not take pictures of the shechita. I could not see it well as there was a large crowd and everyone was standing for that and I did not have a good view of it at that point.
this is the "sgan kohen gadol" posing with me for a picture |
3652 years since leaving Egypt |
the following fellow, I think he said his name is Yefet, chatted with us for a long time after the slaughtering.. he says many years ago he learned in Ponevezshe Yeshiva, and Rav Shach knew he was a Shomronite. He also had a story about having met Rav Kanievsky , and Rav Kanievsky had wanted him to return to show him a document (I did not understand the entire story, so unfortunately I cannot retell it).. He also told us a story about how Rav Goren visited them and was supposedly impressed with their korban ceremony and had said that the Jews will have to come to them to learn how to do the korban pesach when it gets renewed.
this fellow, also a "tourist", happened to be standing right there listening to our conversation. When he heard the name Rav Shach, he mentioned he is the doctor that operated on Rav Shach when he had cancer (colon? intestinal?).
the segan kohen gadol talking to some tourists
taxi! some kids offered a ride in this wagon calling it a cab... |
before the event, a couple kids were walking around selling things. this kid was selling bottles of tehina from Har Bracha |
small world. even bumped into a friend there |
this fellows name was Yissochor, but his nickname is Shuki. explained a lot to us |
some elders sitting beside the altar |
this is what they use for maror. it is called "chasa matzpen". It happens to be that a couple of my friends who have researched marror, independantly, have each come to the conclusion that this is the proper marror and have grown it in their yards to use for Pesach. I tasted this and it is very bitter. not sharp, not sweet - but bitter.
Shachar was also very knowledgeable and explained a lot to us |
its hard to see, but the kohen gadol is sitting in the middle-front of the crowd, with a tallit over his head...
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If Har Gerizim is the Holiest place mentioned in the Torah, then even more so, I ask why are you supporting sheqqer? Kefirah b'Torah sheb'al Peh?
ReplyDeleteDid you give them any money, even for a beverage?
not a penny
ReplyDeleteGood to hear. But, why did you go? Curiosity?
ReplyDeleteI should be clearer. I did not spend a penny (or agura) while there, but that is because I am cheap, not because I think it is wrong to buy a can of coke from them
Deletecuriosity. interest. adventure. learnign and seeing new things . you talk about supporting sheker. i see nothing wrong with going to see it. I have also gone to museums I am sure you can say the same thing about - that going to them is supporting sheker. nu nu. there is no obligation to ghettoize and not know whats around you. participation would have been different, but as a spectator I see no problem.
ReplyDeletethe one thing that made me uncomfortable was that i had not gone on the previous thursday to see the machon hamikdash's korban pesach learning event, so maybe it was inappropriate to go to the shomronim. but i was going more as a tourist and a curiosity than as a learning event, so I got over it :-).
How did they come up with 3652? That seems high - even according to secular dating.
ReplyDeletenot a penny
ReplyDelete"According to them, "your rabbis" made changes when they wanted to - for eexample, King david was from a Moabite woman, as the rabbis explained a Moabite cannot become Jewish and marry into the community, but a Moabite woman can, because it says "Moavi" and they darshan "moavi v'lo moavia". So, the Shomroni said, is your wife allowed to have an extramarital affair because it says "lo tinaf" but does not say "lo tinafi"?
ReplyDeleteSo they seriously believe that David and all his descendants are all ossur lavo be kahal like a mamzer?
(The question from lo sinaf is not a question. With whom exactly do they think the man can commit lo sinaf with other than a married woman? Not to mention the Torah prescribing misah for both participants in neuf.)
we didnt take it that far in our questioning, but that would be the implication
DeleteHow many did they shecht? Do they have chaburos? Do they refrain from breaking bones?
ReplyDeleteI think they shechted 52 sheep/lamb. they said "seh labayit". every family shechts one, unless a family is small they might join up with another family. they do not break bones.
DeleteAre these "Shomronim" your modern-day form of Tzedukim we suffered from in the past, where they reject the Oral Tradition?
ReplyDeleteNot impressed with these Kutim. Do you get inspired by the modern day Kararites? Conservative and Reform or Reconstructionist Jews? Tal is right about the faulty logic with their point about Adultery.
ReplyDeleteIf you have any more information about the Marror plant you mention--now that would be interesting.
Happy Pesach.
Not impressed with these Kutim. Do you get inspired by the modern day Kararites? Conservative and Reform or Reconstructionist Jews? Tal is right about the faulty logic with their point about Adultery.
ReplyDeleteIf you have any more information about the Marror plant you mention--now that would be interesting.
Happy Pesach.
Re your point that "It was strange as I always thought they are pure "written torah" people, but it seems they do have some traditions of their own that are oral traditions, on how to do things."
ReplyDeleteIIRC, Ibn Ezra (can't remember where) makes exactly that point - that everyone must rely on oral law at some point.
DR, every text must be interpreted; the question is whether this is done by its straightforward meaning or there is some attempt to stray from this meaning.
DeleteAn oral torah/law is a body of laws, traditions, customs and interpretations that is considered both obligatory and divine by its practitioners. The Ethiopian Jews may have had one before being muscled into Orthodox Judaism in Israel, but the Samaritans and Qaraite Jews do not.
Shalom Rafi,
Deleteyou have approved my long comment that contains what may be perceived as an anti-Rabbinic slam of the Tefillin. Why then have you declined my comment to DR? I do not see how this makes sense or is fair, notwithstanding that you are entitled to reject comments as you see fit.
Zvi -
Deletea. your comment is approved. I almost never reject any comments, except for spam reasons.
b. comment moderation is only on for old posts, not new posts. This is an old post, which is why it went through moderation. normally it would just go through the google spam system and get posted or not
c. Being that it is an old post, I noticed one comment in the admin system and overlooked the other among all the spam messages. As you pointed it out I went back in and approved it
1. Their script shot off in the late 2nd century BCE from the ancient/paleo-Hebrew script which had been used even in Samaria in the 5-4 centuries BCE, as proved by archaeological artifacts, notably coins and bullae.
ReplyDelete2. Aside from the fact that at least tens of Samaritans are *Halakhically* Jewish owing to being the offspring of Jewesses that have joined the Samaritan community since 1924, their attempt to pigeonhole us Jews into the tribe of Yehudah (and Lewy) alone is propagandistic and historically incorrect, seeing how the Miqra's late books show how the Israelite ancestors of what is currently known as the Jewish people consisted of most every Israelite tribe, including Menashe and Ephrayim; Nehemia explicitly notes that members of these latter two tribes returned with other Israelites from the Babylonian Captivity and settled in Yerushalayim. Just because the majority of us Jews happen to descend from the Southern Israelites who were led by the tribe Yehudah and we ultimately adopted its name as the collective designation for our people does not render the Samaritan propaganda on this point correct.
3. The Samaritans do not wear Tefillin at all since they correctly note, as did Rashbam for example, that they are not the proper interpretation of the Ot+Totafot commandments.
They have two types of Tzitzit and neither has Tekhelet incorporated in it, as they astoundingly argue that they lost the method of producing Tekhelet and its precise shade -- exactly like the mainstream Rabbinic claim!
And any impartial in-depth study into their interpretations of Torah leads to the conclusion they do not observe the Torah exactly as it commands to do; suffice to mention they separate dairy and meat foods almost with the same strictness of religious eastern European Ashkenazim and have allowed their kohanim to tell one's future by reading their handpalm; many of them eat the Passover lamb outdoors; they consider all their customs obligatory; all their prayer services at prescribes times of the day are mandatory and they do not usually eat and sleep in their Sukkot. All of these are breaches of certain Torah commandments.
4. In point of fact, Jerusalem *is* mentioned in the Torah (the usual Masorah version) in the "code" name "Shalem". The Samaritan counterclaim (issued by Binyamim Sedaqa, their chief scholar) that this was impossible since Shalem was actually a village that existed at the time in Samaria has been refuted by pointing out that several locales in Canaan in the Torah's period were "twin cities" bearing the same name, such as Tzefat and Bayt Lehem.
5. I do not think there will be any need to go to the Samaritans to make them teach us how to perform the Zevah Pesah when it resumes for us, since the Qaraite Jewish Hakhamim probably figured it out already in the Middle Ages.