Some are in favor, some are against. all the regular blabber all over the radio about Judaism, halachic state, democracy, etc.
I am in favor, because Israel was established not just to be a democracy but also to be Jewish - to have some sort of unique charcter connected to Judaism.
The problem is that while the law might say, if it passes, that Israel is a Jewish State, there will not be any definition of what that means in the law. Will halacha rule? Will mishpat ivri be in effect?
Such a law should really require more than just a general statement of "Jewish State", but it should delineate how the laws will be affected to reflect the jewishness of the State. Without that, the law is just a farce, only for show, and maybe to upset some people (whether on the Left, on the Palestinian side, or maybe even further out).
And for all those afraid that such a law would be a slippery slope towards a halachic state, I am pretty sure that even most religious people are not interested in a halachic state. We have flourished and grown up in democracies. I doubt too many people want to give up our democracy and turn it into a halachic state. At most a few laws would be adjusted a bit, but the nature of our State would not really change all that much.
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It is sad that most religious people do not want a halachic state. I definitely do want one, BUT, don't think it is realistic right now. It certainly should be a goal, but the ideal time will be when the nation wants it, and not if it is forced on them. The work is already in progress to get there in the long run, and only people like Adi Kol removing the Hebrew date from government documents are slowing down the process. Lapid though is actually a tool to speed it up.
ReplyDeleteAllowing buses in Jewish areas to have sefira counting ? Yes.
Allowing buses in Arab areas to have countdown to end of Ramadan? Yes
Allowing buses in Xian areas to say Merry Xmas - no. Sorry, the line will have to be drawn. Will a halachic state respect other religions? Weel,, does halacha respect other religions and nations?
B"H - Allowing buses in Arab areas to have countdown to end of Ramadan? NO! Don't forget we mustn't be kind to them.
Delete- Allowing buses in Xian areas to say Merry Xmas - no. Sorry, the line will have to be drawn. Will a halachic state respect other religions? Weel,, does halacha respect other religions? NO, not at all! 7 Noahided laws yes, other religious laws NO!
Actually, the Torah does respect other religions. What it doesn't tolerate is Jews taking on the practices (the idea of converting to other religions didn't really exist) of such religions.
DeleteAnd it is assur min hatorah to be mean to Arabs on principle. Your statement that you mustn't be kind to them is so completely against Torah that doesn't even belong in a discussion of a Halachic State.
"I am pretty sure that even most religious people are not interested in a halachic state."
ReplyDeleteAstounding. A better refutation of religious Zionism I cannot think of.
Just curious, what do these "religious" people think they are praying for when they recite Shmoneh Esreh?
I might be wrong, but I dont think so. I also was not referring to just religious zionists, but to all religious people. myself included. I am not so sure I want a halachic state. we have many freedoms and liberties that a halachic state would cancel. a king instead of democracy did not work out so great through most of tanakh, or through most of the world - no reason to think it will be any better now.
Deleteobviously I am referring to a halachic state without mashiach. with mashiach I assume things will be different.
B"H - "Religious Zionism" is idol worshiping the State and its IDF. It's a replacement religion and it is amazing how popular it is amongst Jews
DeleteYou are a fairly disgusting person. Midvar Sheker Tirchak. Ever hear of it?
DeleteWhat does democracy have to do with Judaism? Absolutely nothing. What the PM thinks of as "Jewish," isn't.
ReplyDelete"I am pretty sure that even most religious people are not interested in a halachic state. We have flourished and grown up in democracies."
I guess these individuals are not very religious, are they?
B"H - Nope, they are not, even though most of them think they are. Thanks for bringing this article to my attention.
Deletesee my comment above.
ReplyDeleteIOW, the same ol' "Wait Around for Mashiah to come and do all the work" mentality. :-/
ReplyDeleteWere you aware that this "hashqafah" was not in existence until 500 years ago? IOW, not so old after all.
See Ramba"m Hil. Melachim,...uncensored version, of course. Hint: There is NO setirah between what is stated here and what can be gleaned from Hil. Beith HaBehirah.
perhaps partially, but not completely. I am in favor of building the beit hamikdash now. I go to har habayit and thats the most I can do right now. I do not know that a halachic state is a requirement for mashiach, and from our history I do not know that it is what the people will thrive under the best. I am in favor of the sanhedrin, but I dont see it as being realistic. without a sanhedrin, a halachic state is basically a dictatorship of the rabbis that garner the most power.
Delete1. What's talk about State, and not Kingdom? I didn't cite the Ramba"m just cuz. I cited him, because he shows how HaZa"L teaches what a Jewish government is,...as opposed to a Hellenist government. We are allowed to appoint a kind NOW, who is not even from the line of David.
Delete2. If you think that the State of Israel is even a Democracy, then I do not know what I can say to help you open up your eyes (not meant to be condescending, rather conveying my feeling of utter powerlessness). It is barely even a deMOCKracy.
3. Will you at least acknowledge that there are "Jews" in this country, and functioning in one capacity or another in its government, who have quite nefarious, anti-Torah agendas?
4. I am not sure that your definition of "dictatorship" fits here. I know of perhaps only a few "rabbis" in the public who MIGHT come close to being on the appropriate level to sit on the Sanhedrin. Please review TB Sanhedrin 97a. "The bearers of the truth will be shunned...."
'Nuff said.
You apparently don't know what a democracy is if you don't believe Israel is one. I'd say it's much more so than the U.S., for example.
DeleteI'll meet you guys in the middle. There is no true democracy in the world, but many strive to be one. In comparison, the Soviet Union was also not a communist entity, yet it strived to get their. Israel and the US are definitely not perfect democracies.
DeleteB"H - OK, so there are many points to be mentioned here. One is that we are not supposed to pick and choose the mitzvot we like. Torah is clear on what it wants from us on the Land. When you cross this Yordan.. Three things to be done: a) o appoint a king, b) to annihilate Amalek and c) to build the Temple. This State did neither of this three in the past 66 years, so it is safe to say: This is not a Jewish State. There are other reasons, but I don't want to enter those because I'm lazy. I just want to focus on one aspect here and this is democ[k]racy. Demos means people in Greek and Cratos power. Democracy is people-power, in Greek, which is Hellas, where the word Hellenism coms from; Democracy is an intrinsically Hellenistic concept and the exact opposite of what Judaism is. In Judaism the flow of authority comes from Hashem, from above, and goes down, down, toward humanity in general and toward the Children of Israel in particular. In democracy, at least on paper, it is the other way round, from the people, up, up, towards government. In this context what a Jewish state legislation can possibly mean? The answer is nothing, because the whole thing is an oxymoron, an opposition of terminology: How can a people-power institution, kneset, decide and say that the Land and People it rules over are a Hashem-cracy? Impossible! So, if the answer cannot possibly come from kneset and prime minister, where can it come from? The answer is, from the Children of Israel, from those Jews who live on the Land. We can and indeed we should abandon the present Hellenistic State and form a new Torah State that does all the Jewish things we should be doing on the Land. In practical terms this means refraining from any vote for kneset, even for Feiglin, Ben Ari and for all the other "good Jews" and cry out to Hashem to allow us to have our Torah institutions, the king, who with his two Torah scrolls runs the executive according to halacha, the Sanhedrin and righteous courts in every village all over the Land to administer Justice and a Kohen Gadol to run the Temple on the Temple Mount of Jerusalem. This is our constitutional Torah setup, Hashem's perfect society with divine checks and balances the Jews are put in this world to do. If and when we don't do this, as we don't. we deviate from the Divine Plan and this can not be good for anyone, not even for the goyim, who look at us for guidance. And what do we show them? A State of Israel with an IDF that destroys Jewish housing, businesses and synagogues, because they are Jewish: Of course there is an increase in anti-Semitism, how could it be otherwise?
ReplyDeleteThis State did neither of this three in the past 66 years, so it is safe to say: This is not a Jewish State.
Deletewhen am yisrael came into eretz yisrael (the first time), it took them hundreds of years before any of those three were done.
Of course there is an increase in anti-Semitism, how could it be otherwise?
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
This is our constitutional Torah setup, Hashem's perfect society with divine checks and balances the Jews are put in this world to do.
Deletethe perferct society that was worked so well the last times it was tried that it was burnt to the ground.
Ben, that's because we did not follow directions. But, at least then, people were not as blind to the evil of some of those referring to themselves as "Jews," and were as afraid as we are now to speak up about it.
Deletegood to know that we've worked out the kinks.
DeleteWow. The Jews were not commanded to do any of those things when crossing the Yarden. Do you have the same Chumash as the rest of us Jews?
ReplyDelete1) It's a machlokes whether appointing a king is even a mitzvah. It may be a reshus.
2) Israel had no king until several hundred years after Yehoshua died.
3) Only one king (the first) was commanded to do anything directly to Amalek. Was Dovid not a proper king of Israel because he never fought a genocidal war against them?
4) There is no Mitzvah to build a Temple. It wasn't until Shlomo Hamelech that Hashem even allowed one to be built. And that was decades after the Mishkan was destroyed.
And Rafi is pretty clear about the distinction between a Jewish State and a Halachic State. Of course, if you are unaware of even the most basic Halachos of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel, it stands to reason that the difference would be lost on you.
(Check out the upcoming Parsha. Funny that it doesn't mention Amalek, kings or the Bet Hamikdash when it mentions reasons for the land being laid to waste.)
Avi, the Torah respects other religions? No. We are patur from chasing after avodah zarah (now) outside of Israel. That's respect? It is an understatement to say that violations of the 7 Misswoth of Bnei Noah are unacceptable, be they Muslim murder, and refusal to bring the murderers to justice, or the avodah zarah of the Christians. Not only that, but Israeli's INVITE A"Z into the Land via the Catholic Philappinos and Indian Christians and Hindus.
ReplyDeleteA"Z is filth and disgust and pollution, quite the opposite of respect.
Get your head out of Galuth!
It is obvious that you don't know what respect is. There is no obligation to wipe out followers of other religions. There is simply a prohibition against practicing them.
Delete(There was a one-time exception with regards to the inhabitants of Canaan when Yehushua conquered, and that was because it was inevitable that Jews would succumb to temptation. As history has proven correct.)
Avi, are you making this up as you go along? Or did someone calling himself "rabbi" fill your head with this antithesis of Torah, Western, progressive, assimilationist crap?
DeleteYou are not connected to a Geulah-Torah reality.
Please review הלכות עבודה זרה וחוקות הגוייםהלכות עבודה Chapter 4 in particular. Here are the misswoth which we have, you seem to believe do not exist:
(א) שלא לפנות אחר עבודה זרה; (ב) שלא לתור אחר הרהור הלב וראיית העיניים; (ג) שלא לגדף; (ד) שלא יעבוד אותה כדרך עבודתה; (ה) שלא ישתחווה לה; (ו) שלא לעשות פסל לעצמו; (ז) שלא לעשות פסל אפילו לאחרים; (ח) שלא לעשות צורות אפילו לנואי; (ט) שלא להדיח אחרים אחריה; (י) לשרוף עיר הנידחת; (יא) שלא לבנותה; (יב) שלא ליהנות מכל ממונה; (יג) שלא להסית יחיד לעובדה; (יד) שלא לאהוב המסית; (טו) שלא לעזוב שנאתו; (טז) שלא להצילו; (יז) שלא ללמד עליו זכות; (יח) שלא יימנע מללמד עליו חובה; (יט) שלא להתנבא בשמה; (כ) שלא לשמוע מן המתנבא בשמה; (כא) שלא להתנבא בשקר, ואפילו בשם ה'; (כב) שלא לגור מהריגת נביא שקר; (כג) שלא לישבע בשם עבודה זרה; (כד) שלא לעשות אוב; (כה) שלא לעשות יידעוני; (כו) שלא להעביר למולך; (כז) שלא להקים מצבה; (כח) שלא להשתחוות על אבן משכית; (כט) שלא ליטע אשרה; (ל) לאבד עבודה זרה וכל הנעשה בשבילה; (לא) שלא ליהנות בעבודה זרה ובכל משמשיה; (לב) שלא ליהנות בציפויי נעבד; (לג) שלא לכרות ברית לעובדי עבודה זרה; (לד) שלא לחון עליהן; (לה) שלא יישבו בארצנו; (לו) שלא להידמות במנהגותם ובמלבושם; (לז) שלא לנחש; (לח) שלא לקסום; (לט) שלא לעונן; (מ) שלא לחבור חבר; (מא) שלא לדרוש אל המתים; (מב) שלא לשאול באוב; (מג) שלא לשאול ביידעוני; (מד) שלא לכשף; (מה) שלא להקיף פיאת ראש; (מו) שלא להשחית פיאת זקן; (מז) שלא יעדה איש עדי אישה; (מח) שלא תעדה אישה עדי איש; (מט) שלא לכתוב קעקע; (נ) שלא להתגודד; (נא) שלא לעשות קורחה על מת. וביאור כל המצוות האלו בפרקים אלו.
**Ramba"m's Mishneh Torah**
DeleteA King reshuth or misswah? Perhaps you were thinking misswah vs.hovah, in which case I believe you are correct. Who else besides the Ramba"m (via HaZa"L) even addresses these misswoth? The Arukh HaShulhan? I don't recall.
ReplyDeleteMy point above is that a Sanhedrin (for sure), which has been around since Moshe Rabbeinu, and King (or Nasi-not Shimon Peres style) is a heck of a lot more Jew than Hellenist democracy.
Furthermore, Rafi, it does matter if we are comfortable or not with the democracy of our galuth. It matters that we do the correct thing. I still take issue with your use of the term "dictatorship." True, there are many men called "rabbis" out there who would not be good for AM Yisrael, and would just like you say, but to dismiss this concept summarily,...and for the sake of what is comfortable? I find that very disturbing.
The Hashmonites won the battle but lost the war
ReplyDeleteNevertheless....
ReplyDeleteB"H - Ben Waxman and Avi Shevin, good to know that you guys go by a chumas of your choice. Evidently it says: ..and elect yourselves a kneset of Jews and Arabs to give you man-made laws to follow on My Land instead of My Laws and instead of My Torah. Yeah,very Jewishhhh, sorry to say you didn't internalize a yud from what is given to us and why it was given!
ReplyDeletei am eagerly awaiting the day that this perfect torah government comes into place.
DeleteUnder the circumstances, we should at least strive for a government that is not anti-halachic.
ReplyDelete