A knesset committee requested that the Minister of Education, Rav Shai Piron, reverse his decision and also include the haredi school system in the new program.
Piron responded that he wants to promote the public school system. In the entire world, the public school system is completely financed by the government, and private school systems are not funded at all by the government. In Israel we have an unusual situation [by which private schools also receive some funding]. That is ok, but when introducing a new program, "I am not obligated by that" and he sees no purpose in including the haredi sector in the program.
In response, MK Uri Maklev (UTJ) said that the Education Minister had claimed previously that he is responsible for every child in Israel, but he is not taking responsiblity for many children. All he is interested in, Maklev said, is chasing down the Haredi community, but not actually concerned about their education..
Piron responded by saying that whoever chooses to send his child to private school (mukar she'aino rishmi) has the right to do so - there are benefits such as smaller classes, choosing your own teachers, selectively accepting students, etc. but someone who chooses that path should also understand that he gives up the right to the benefits of the public education system. Public education should get 100% funding and private should get 0% funding. Piron said he plans on getting to that point as well. He says he was appointed in order to strengthen the public school system, and choosing an alternative system is fine, but you must understand you will get less funding.
source: Bechadrei
Essentially I agree with Minister Piron. I have not understood how people who run a private school system (at least partially private) can make demands of the government for funding. Maybe it is because having grown up int eh USA, private school was literally private, without government funding. Yes, haredim pay taxes, and some of that money goes to the public school system they largely do not benefit from, but that is their choice. In the USA as well, people who send kids to private school also pay taxes that got o funding the public schools they dont benefit from. The citizen does not get to choose where his tax money goes. It goes to the government whop uses it to fund the various programs it operates - some beneficial to one taxpayer, and others beneficial to other taxpayers.
Even though I lose out, as my kids are in haredi school systems, I still don't get the logic of UTJ that Piron must fund the private schools as well. To me it is entirely logical that thos enot in the public school system would not get the funding or same programs as the public school system.
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ReplyDeletehttp://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-churban-of-internet.html
In other countries choosing private over public is largely a choice based on quality as a result of the private education having a larger budget. Both systems are, by and large, teaching similar material. So not offering money to the private system seems defendable.
ReplyDeleteHere in Israel, the public system is so distinct from what the private system offers, it's not right to take tax money from the public and not offer an option that suits their needs.So refusing to help subsidize private schools is wrong.
I dont completely follow the logic, but especially because Piron has in the past stated explicitly that he is workign to create a new stream under the public school system that would be specifically for the haredi community with a haredi-style education - mamlachti haredi. the haredi askanim said a loud no, and there were, at the time, public warnings that school administrators better not cooperate with Piron and shouldnt even consider joining his system.
Deleteso, by your logic, if the government does offer the option that more or less suits their needs, then the situation will change?
I really don't see how you're able to say that. Jewish schools outside of Israel are vastly different than public schools. If anything, (some) public schools in Israel are almost identical to the haredi schools.
DeleteNachum - some public schools in Israel are identical to Charedi schools?? Can you back that up? Sorry, but that's not the case.
DeleteRafi G. - of course, if a govt. school would conform to charedi needs the equation would change. That won't happen for obvious reasons, but if it theoretically did, then yes.
"if a govt. school would conform to charedi needs the equation would change. That won't happen for obvious reasons"
DeleteYes, the obvious reason being that "charedi needs" include the need for the government to stay out of charedi education completely, which would make it a non-government school... Round and round we go.
Herb - does that include if the government attempts to conform bu the community rejects it? at that point do we say you chose to reject us so you are on your own, or its the governments problem until they get the community to agree on something?
DeleteHerb, there are plenty of religious public schools in Israel that learn Torah as charedim do. You can go to public school in Israel and get a full Jewish education, unlike the US.
DeleteNachum - charedim would strongly disagree with that opinion. The difference between the religous state schools and the private ones is vast. Spend 5 minutes watching the students of the schools walk out and you'll see. And that doesn't even get to what goes on in the schools.
DeleteRafi - "Government of the people, by the people, for the people..." Lincoln
The goverment is meant to serve the people. It is the govts job to try to find a solution that serves its public, and if not possible, providing financial help seems to be reasonable. If the charedi kids joined the govt schools, the govt would have to spend money on them, so letting families choose their own schools and receive some money seems appropriate. Obviously, taken to an extreme, this could lead to anarchy and destroy a govts budget, but in the specific case of school choice, it seems reasonable.
In Italy as a result of the Church's influence private schools are heavily funded. Maybe the Haredim should unite and slowly build a mafia that is as powerful as the Church (it will take some millenia, but they have enough patience...)
ReplyDeleteReligious Schools in America receive funding for lunches for children from low income homes, some money toward secular subject textbooks, in some areas bus transportation, some special education services that the child would have received had he attended public school, and funding for teachers to provide additional support in small groups for low income students.
ReplyDeleteThe US has a separation of church and state, which Israel (and Italy) do not.
By the way, Israel isn't that unusual. Lots of other countries fund religious schools. They are expected to keep certain standards, though.
ReplyDeleteThe purpose of government funded education ( free education) is to ensure that every child has the opportunity to receive an education, not to fund a government, and politically influenced, agenda.
ReplyDeleteApparently, Piron has never heard of Charter Schools. (Like 'em or hate 'em, you can't deny they exist.) I'd expect the Minister of Education to be aware of what's going on in his field of supposed expertise.
ReplyDeleteYoni, thanks for that info
Deletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school
Exactly.
ReplyDeleteAnyone following NY politics knows that De Blasio got into a big fight with people who revolutionized education, especially in poor communities, through charter schools. These people are his natural allies in every other area, but b/c he was so locked in to his wordview, he had a hard time dealing with them.
In the US, there is lots of push to have more choice, not less. Why should we move in the opposite direction?
lol. Are you implying that charedi schools have revolutionized education? lol.
DeleteIf you would be objective, then there are many points in Haredi/Hardali education that for sure have revolutionized education in that they have sustained a level the mamlachti education has long lost. There are some pilot projects in the regular system that could be adopted to the Haredi systems.
DeleteNo, xyz, that was not implied. The point of my comparison was to show that even ideologues like De Blasio have to recognize that sometimes the private sector does better than the government.
DeleteBTW, it's not only charedi schools that this applies to.
My kids go to a "private" school and the extra hours given are all covered (for years!) not by the gov't but by my pocket. That's fine with me. But my beef is when Piron wants to come and say that he won't even cover the same "liba" that exists in public schools. Why not? Just b/c his office doesn't control them and can't tell them which Rashi to teach and which not?
I'm with Hamasig on this one. The public school system is often useded to push a political ideology, not education.
ReplyDeleteFWIW, I think the Haredi system could be enticed to be more mamlachti, but ONLY through cooperation, not cheap populist one-sided measures meant to post arrogant facebook messages. Change takes a long time. If Peron wanted a real change and not just to push hate, he would make a 5-10 year plan to increase liba, non-political subjects to the Haredi schools by proposing to provide funding for kitot mehunanim like in the secular system. DO NOT make any bombastic press conferences that would merely attract loud kneejerk responses, and keep this low key in order to make it a success.
The fact that something is funded by the government in no way indicates that it must be produced by the government. For example, the US government funds food for poor people (food stamps). No one has yet suggested that food stamps should only be accepted at government-run stores.
ReplyDeleteBy the same token, the US government funds education. It is absurd to suggest that because the government funds the education, the government must also produce the education. Nobel-Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman made this exact point many years ago. It was he who conceived of the voucher system by which parents get to choose whichever school they want and use government money to pay tuition.
To quote Mr. Friedman:
"The government says every child must go to school until such and such and age. That is the equivalent of saying if you are going to drive a car you must have a license. The second stage is funding. Not only do we require you to have an education, but the government is willing to pay for that schooling. That would be equivalent to saying the government is willing to pay for your car that you drive. The third level is running the educational industry. That would be the equivalent of the government manufacturing the automobile or, to put it in a different image, consider food stamps today. Food stamps are funds provided by the government. But if that were to be run like the schools, they would say everybody has to use these food stamps at a government grocery and each person with food stamps is assigned to a particular government grocer. So the only way you can get your food stamps is by going to that grocer."
See also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUSOtID5RsQ