sources: Bechadrei and Kikar
I am familiar with the Ashkenazi Haredi opinion on the hetter mechira, and I know they consider it unacceptable. Rav Elyashiv used to say one must kasher pots before using them if they were previously used for cooking hetter mechira produce. They reject it completely.
That is fine. They have the right to a halachic opinion.
I just wish that when rabbis make such a definitive statement they would also explain their words a bit. Explain what is so bad about hetter mechira. Explain why it cannot even be relied up bdieved.
Explain what you mean when you say "according to all opinions" - especially considering that it is not true. There were, and are, great rabbis that support the use of hetter mechira. Even if you or I choose not to use such produce and not rely on those who allow it, I do not deny that great rabbis are in the list who allow it. does "according to all opinions" really just mean "according to all opinions that I agree with and accept"?
I wish they would explain, so that we could understand what is wrong with it to the extreme, for learning's sake.
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Reb Shlomo Zalman ztz"l wrote that most of the poskim who did NOT rely on the heter mechira were not SURE it was no good - that doesn't seem to be the same as "worthless".
ReplyDeleteReb Chaim generally tends to express himself in regard to his own world-view - just one small example, someone asked him if you have to wash your hands after shaving, and his answer was "It is prohibited to shave."
Interesting to contrast this with his enthusiastic support of the other hetter mechira that is quite the rage this year, the selling of small parcels to those who are thereby guaranteed fulfillment of all the mitzvos of shemittah.
ReplyDeleteInteresting to know how he sees a difference.
I haven't heard of that, but one of the main problems the Chazon Ish had with the hetter mechira was the prohibition of selling land to a non-Jew - which obviously isn't applicable in what you mentioned. In addition, since it does not involve any issurim, it is probably less problematic.
ReplyDeleteI didnt want to get into a debate of the actual issues, as they are fairly well known. I wanted to know why he says according to everybody it is worthless. it wasnt just rav ovadia that approved of it. Rav SZA wasnt so against it. Rav Yitzchak Elchonon, Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank, all the chief rabbis of Israel, the Sochocver Rebbe, among others, supported the hetter mechira in one way or another.
Deleteregarding what you wrote, I recently learned the halachic issues of hetter mechira fairly thoroughly. the main issue of lo techanaim is not that they were transgressing by selling, but because of the way it worked, they were using the rabbanut as a shliach, and ayn shliach ldvar aveira. so in addition to transgressing, the shlichus didnt work making the entire sale invalid.
the rabbanut has imporved the method by getting rid of the shlichus part and make the sale direct. so even if you say the farmer is transgressing lo sechaneim (a machlokes on its own), by all counts the sale is valid despite the possible transgression.
so one can argue if the opposition to the hetter mechira is even still valid today.
regardless of that, and considering that, I would still like to know why Rav Chaim is so opposed to it and why he considers it "according to everybody".
He is so opposed to it because he basically does everything according to the Chazon Ish.
DeleteI don't know how he can say that it is according to everybody.
The Chazon Ish's problems with Heter Mechira start way before even considering the issue of selling the land. Look at how he holds on land that has been owned by a non-Jew for generations.
Delete1. If a goy sells fruit from his land he Chazon Ish holds that it still holds Kedusha Shviit where as most poskim hold that it doesn't.
2. He also holds that the land also has Kedush Shviit, so if a Jew were to leave his land fallow and go work on an Arab farm, he wouldn't be able to because of the restrictions of Shmitta.
Even if the Chazon Ish held the Heter Mechira sale was a good sale it still wouldn't help.
This is an important point you make regarding Qedushath Shevi'ith.
DeleteThe bottom line is this. When Rav Kook made Heter Mekhira (He was the second to do so, I believe. 5 Hachamei Europa were before him), he said the economic situation needed to be examined every 7 years and could not be done automatically.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone been checking every 7 years? I think not.
My understanding is that Rav Kook knew that the Land was in such a state that piqu'ah nefesh was good enough. Plus, remember that we are observing Shemitah mid'Rabbanan, so even more so there is a way to be lenient. But, he also knew that the people would need more than this, and so he search for sources allowing the sale of Eretz Yisrael to a goy. He believed that he found such a [minority] source in the Ba"ch [commenting on the Beth Yosef, commenting on the Tur] in relation to the negative commandment "lo techonem." The Ramba"m, Tur, and Beth Yosef all confirm that the term Avodah Zarah here is referring to a goy, and not just an oved A"Z, which [according to the Ramba"m, at least] would appear to allow the sale of land to a Muslim.
Is there anyone out there familiar with Rav Kook's work (I am not) you can say upon which sources he originally based his heter? Besides the Ba"ch?
I know that people are going to get pissed off when I suggest this about Rav Kook. But, it is possible that he only saw a censored portion of the Ba"ch. I have to look more into this.
However, as I said before, regarding the "heter," have we been examining the economic situation in the Land every 7 years? Are we in dire straights?
It seems to me that those rabbis saying the heter mekhira is meaningless are not only right on, but they are right on, according to Rav Kook's own opinion.
This is not the place to debate the issue, as it is extremely complex, but although the reasons for the need for the hetter might be different today, they are no less compelling.
DeleteThose who think it's not necessary can only do so because they have the luxury of 98% of the rest of the population not competing with them for the limited amount of non-hetter produce available. COnsider what the security situation would be if we were entirely dependent on Europe for ALL our fresh food.
Google Rav Yakov Ariel, Rav Veitman, etc (hebrew) to get started.
Why is it not the place to debate the issue?
Delete"Consider what the security situation would be if we were entirely dependent on Europe for ALL our fresh food."
Dude, if there were a "security" situation all of a sudden, then I have no doubt that there would be a compelling reason to suspend shemitah entirely, anyway. It's called piqu'ah nefesh, in a similar vein to Rav Kook's original [unnecessary] heter.
It's simple not the rocket science many rabbis would have you to think it is.
Furthermore, why hasn't the economic situation been checked regularly, like Rav Kook said?
Instead of Googling, why you just tell us the most important element here. What is the halakhic justification for selling Land to a goy?
Sorry, it's a very complex issue and I don't have the time to do your homework for you.
DeleteI gave you the tools to do it yourself.
Once you've read a few essays on the subject (and perhaps read Rav Veitman's sefer as well, which included his discussions with RSZA), you can let us know why they're wrong.
Not going to debate you.
Bye.
No, it's not complex. I was just going to let this go, but there is a greater issue here. I have no doubt that this comment will be considered mean, and even "immature." I don't care. This needs to be said, and repeated a thousand times.
DeleteYour response is so typical of the brainwashed, diehard Statists who follow "rabbis" who are either on the State's payroll, and/or who they, themselves, confuse Torah with State law to the degree that they are collaborators with galuth, and with our own path toward self-destruction.
If you are not going to participate in an halakhic discussion, in an halakhic manner, like those above, then don't bother.
You say something is complex and should not be debated here, then it is YOUR responsibility to justify your position, not Rav Ya'akov Ariel's, nor any other rav's. Otherwise, no one has to listen to you, nor take you seriously.
This is YOUR homework, and not anyone else's.
Esser, legitimate questions. I think that shmitta in Israel has been evolving and progressing and not automatic. I don't have all the details or know how large a scale but I understand that the [Zionist] government will indeed compensate farmers who want the land to rest. W/R to heter mechira, for sure, I'm not one to get into a halachic discussion, but from the side this year more than ever, it would seem perhaps that the rabbis are more than ever supporting heter mechira because of the 'lo techanem' in that we are giving so much work to the Arabs at the expense of the farmers.
DeleteHmmm... Perhaps. This would then appear to be an halakhic Catch-22. But, I don't buy it, as much of these halachoth can be prioritize as to which would take precedence over another. I still maintain that the sale of the Land is problematic at best. I just don't see any justification for it. I'd like to hear more about the "evolving" and "progressing" nature of the "heter" sometime.
DeleteNo justification? How do you feed the six million plus Jews living here without any commercial agricultural production?
DeleteAsk yourself a simple questions, when does Shmitta function properly? The answer is when you have an agricultural society where around 80 percent of the population is involved in farming that produces well beyond subsistence levels.
Farmers obviously have problems observing Shmitta if they are producing near subsistence levels of produce, and that was the original justification.
Today when a very small sector of the workforce is producing food for the rest of the population the result of observing shmitta is that there is almost no domestic produce moving through the supply chain to urban areas. If you want produce to flow into cities you have no choice but to buy from non-jews - primarily from other countries. Doing so would subject Israel to supply disruptions and make us easy prey for economic exploitation. So, is using Heter Mechira observing Shmitta as described in the Torah? Absolutely not, but neither is the alternative.
In principle this is the same rationale used for Pruzbul and Heter Iska. Observing shmittat kesafim and ribit would cripple the economy and eventually people would starve. It's not ideal but its reality. As Dovid correctly points out, the luxury of not relying on Heter Iska is possible only because it is done by a small minority of the population.
Also, your notion of "statist rabbis" is offensive and absurd. "Statist" rabbis consider the good of the entire nation in deciding halakha, not the small community of their diehard followers. So yes, they come to conclusions that are more in line with the interests of the state, which you may recall is the State of Israel, the home of the Jewish People.
MJ, even your response is heads and tails above Dovid's. Yet, you still miss the mark.
DeleteI asked for halakhic justification. You provided many reasons, which could very well be considered in the heshbon. But, you have not provide halakhic justification for sale of the Land. As I alluded to above, I do not believe that there is, and I do not believe that Rav Kook would that there is if he saw the uncensored censored sources available to us today.
If the issue is piqu'ah nefesh, then I believe that we simply would not need any "heter." We would simply suspend Shemitah, even more so that we are currently holding to shemitah mid'Rabbanan and not mid'Oraithah. (Yes piqu'ah nefesh would doheh this as well. Just sayin'.)
The alternative is to suspend Shemitah, instead trying to find combinot (rouses) to get around it. It be a lot more intellectually and honest.
As to your statist rabbis, let me clarify. There are two, if not three or four, Religious Zionist camps, NOT one.
I would not consider R' Lior or R' Yisrael Ariel "statists," in the least. Nor would I consider R' Z. Melamed a statist, although I take issue with some of his positions. Then there are those rabbis like Rav Simcha Kook of Rehovoth who have the courage to make unpopular rulings.
Interestingly enough, there are statist rabbis (not many) who have issue with heter mekhira, too. If I remember correctly R' Cherlow in Petah Tiqwah was not a fan of it 7 years ago.
There are definitely statist rabbis out there doing a lot of damage, but I never stated how many of them there are, nor what percentage of RZ rabbis I consider to be such. I should have be clearer in the first place. But, no, I will not apologize for the main point I was making with this statement.
What bothers me the most is that no one seems to be following Rav Kook's direction, per se.
""Statist" rabbis consider the good of the entire nation in deciding halakha, not the small community of their diehard followers."
This statement and their subsequent actions may be correct, and noble, and otherwise proper, but the still need to be supported al pi halakha. I am still waiting for someone to provide this support.
this shmitta year, the rabbanut have found a ger toshov to "sell" land to, thereby avoiding lo techonem
Deletethe question you keep asking is really irrelevant. They have worked out ways of doing it so that Lo Secaneim doesnt apply according to many opinions. According to the Chazon Ish it still does.
DeleteBut even if there is a halachic issue of sellign land to a goy, as per the chazon ish, that does not necessarily mean such a sale is invalid. Depending on how it was processed and performed, the sale might be valid despite the fact that they possibly transgressed a torah dictum in the process.
Rafi, It most certainly IS relevant, until someone can finally 1) cite the source for this, and 2) that source(s) can be held up to scrutiny.
DeleteThe Council of Vagueness, everyone refers to as "they" has no authority as "they."
Anonymous above, you presented an intriguing option. I have heard this position lurking around, since their are some opinions out there suggesting that it is possible to accept a ger toshav without Yovel in effect.
I certainly hope it is real ger toshav, one who accepts the Torah as the only truth. Christians and Muslims cannot be considered gerei toshav, if for no other reason that they b'al tosif.
I have heard one option to find a boy who was converted as a child by his parents. If he were to renounce his conversion at the age of 13, he would automatically be considered a ger toshav, according to many. Then, he could always convert later in life, if he so chose.
Yet, then I am not so sure that this is a "Heter," but rather something with much stronger halakhic backing leKhathillah. Worth looking into.
I just read Rav Rimon's new sefer, Shmita (I read it in Hebrew). He has a chapter on hetter mechira, dealing with all the halachic aspects and arguments. he details all the poskim and rishonim who hold it is ok and those who say it is not ok, with all their arguments. go check it out.
DeleteI think that what Reb Chaim really meant in "according to all opinions" that even according to the shita that there is no Kedushas SHiviis in non-Jewish produce, the hetter is still no good (according to his opinion) - I don't believe he meant that there are no poskim who permit it.
ReplyDeleteHave you read any of Reb Chaim's other tshuvos? They're ALWAYS only a couple of words with the bottom line psak. He's just not into long explanations, it's not special to this issue
ReplyDeleteEsser: Could you explain why you prefer that someone write a brief summary on a blog rather than reading presentations (in writing and audio) that explain the matter more fully?
ReplyDeleteAnd why in the world should someone take the time to summarize all this for you, even if you do prefer a summary to doing your own reading and listening?
Rav Shlomo Yosef Zevin has a chapter about Heter Mechira in "L'Or HaHalacha" (unfortunately not available on hebrewbooks.com)
ReplyDelete