source: Haredim10
1. I dont believe the story. I believe it is made up just to strengthen his point. He heard about a talmid that was taken to the army though he is not sure why that threw away his entire religion with 10 months. It sounds like a bubba maiseh. He knows no details about this talmid or what actually happened.
2. Maybe he threw everything away, if it really happened, because the rosh yeshiva and his rebbeim did not call him or stay in touch with him. For whatever reason he had to go to the army, supposedly. Does that mean his rebbeim should not stay in touch with him and give him chizuk when he needs it? Where were his friends? Did they all just abandon him to the wolves because he did not have the right connections - and then they blame the wolves for eating him?
3. After however many years in yeshiva, are the students faith and beliefs so fragile that within 10 months everything is gone? Is that a quality education?
4. Perhaps his case is an outlier, and no proofs can be brought from an outlier case.
5. I am sure the army is a difficult place for many people. Depending on the circumstances, people can face enormous challenges in the army, as they can anywhere else in life. I would bet though, considering the story, if it even happened, plus my thoughts above, that this young man was already on the path to off the path well before he ended up in the army. I know of many young men that dropped their religion while still in yeshiva, and I would bet that this young fictitious man is one of them.
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the plural of anecdote isn't data
ReplyDeletekt
joel rich
Just one man's experience from the army, but it makes me believe what he said
ReplyDeleteIn my unit (Golani), we had over the course of our "Maslul" (first 14 months) 7 officers. Every single one of them came from a religious home (I would see 2 of them on Shabbos in shul with their parents), and every one had thrown it off entirely after coming to the army. Some came from Mechinot (including Eli), others straight from high school
I don't think this phenomenon can be denied, however sad it is. Army life is very difficult (at least it was when I was there, many years ago). It does not necessarily reflect on the quality of the education they received.
Please don't comment that if they came to Shul with their parents then they hadn't thrown it off. Believe me, they had
So what about all the people who *keep* their religion in the army? What's the difference there?
DeleteClearly it's the person and not the army.
nachum,
Deleteyou are obviously correct. now let's take your thinking to it's logical conclusion: smoking is obviously not a health risk, after all what about all the people who don't get lung cancer or emphysema. driving under the influence of alcohol? perfectly fine, after all what about all those who drive under the influence and don't cause an accident. feel like shooting up heroin? go for it! after all what about all of those who tried it and didn't get addicted.
you've changed my perspective on life, thank you.
it definitely happens a lot. it also doesnt happen a lot. question is the chicken or the egg. is it the weaker boys going in, so it isnt really the army causing it, or is it the army causing it even with strong boys? this question can apply to both haredi boys going in and to dl boys going in.
Deleterafi,
Deleteyou are mistaken. in the case of charedi young men who serve in the army, they are a self selected tiny minority who have already (as a general rule) failed out of the yeshiva system. but in the case of DL young men, service is ubiquitous, so the spiritually strong serve just as much much as the spiritually weak.
the fact that between 20-50% (depending on a number of factors. the 20% comes from hesder, the 50% is based on anecdotal evidence from hakibutz hadati) of DL young adults abandon religious practice during or shortly after military service certainly says something about the DL community, but the fact that it happens overwhelmingly during or just after military service can not be an accident. rafi, you didn't serve, so you simply can't imagine what it is like.
from a nameless seren in the milluim who has "been there, done that"
anyone who has served in the idf knows that throwing off religion is a common phenomenon (and certainly not an "outlier"). and joel rich is wrong, the the plural of anecdote certainly is data when the anecdotes surround you on every side over a prolonged period of time, and it is an experience that is ubiquitous among all of your acquaintances.
ReplyDeletechazal warned us time and again not to underestimate the power of the yetser hara, esther was punished for referring to the power of evil as a dog, and had to immediately recant and give evil it's due respect by calling it a lion. likewise we pray daily "v'lo leydai nisayon" precisely because we recognize that weakness in the face of temptation is a natural part of the human condition.
the army is a professional organisation whose primary role is to "mold people". the idea that a yeshiva education, however wholesome, can be relied upon to resist that over a prolonged period of time, for a relatively young person, who is isolated from his support system, and surrounded by temptations of the flesh, is absurd.
only someone who has never served in the idf can suggest something so absurd. the fact that the majority of religious soldiers remain religious is a testament to the power of judaism, but a very substantial minority is lost to judaism, and it is proper that we take that fact with appropriate seriousness.
from a nameless seren in the milluim who has "been there, done that"
the plural of anecdote is not data.
Deleteif the premise being tested is "Obviously the point being that the army is bad because of such a story." then one would have to set up random testing of the experience of those who have and have not gone into the army from similar backgrounds (and of course define bad) to determine whether the premise is supported by data.
of course this assumes that one could make the meta argument that everyone could stay out of the army and the Jewish people would be protected and better off. Interesting that we just read about Pinchas.
kt
joel rich
joel,
Deletedo you actually live your life in accordance with this belief? would you cross the street without looking, until such time as you have "data" to support that it is dangerous, or would a single neighbor getting run over by a truck when crossing without looking be sufficient to convince you that it is a bad idea?
of course we would still have to define what is "bad", after all, lacking such a formal finding, it is possible that spending 6 months in body cast is actually "good".
there are rare cases wherein life experience could lead one astray, and it pays to be cognizant of that. but in general widespread experience that a particular behavior is associated with devastating results, does not require a formal study involving case/control to convince a reasonable person of the danger inherent to that particular behavior.
be well and stay safe
from a nameless seren in the milluim who has "been there, done that"
Generally yes.
Deletewould you stop crossing the street at the light because a friend got hit by a truck that ran the light? not take a possibly life saving medicine because 1% of people who take it have side effects? not have an army and rely on HKB"H to protect his people without them making any effort?
it's all about risk/reward and context.
KT
Joel Rich
it does happen a lot but a lot also do not throw anything off. if a young haredi man goes in to a haredi unit, he is required to daven three times a day, there are no women around, he is required to participate in shiurim, etc. Life outside the yeshiva is not the same as in the yeshiva, but they provide an environment where it is very possible to stay frum, and some even get frummer. as I wrote above, boys that become less frum might have done so at any other place they might have gone, and even in yeshiva.
DeleteSo according to Rafi, to each point:
ReplyDelete1. Rabbi Mazuz is probably a liar
2. Its probably his Rebbi's fault
3. Its probably the Yeshiva's fault
4. Ok, even if its true, so what?
5. It must be the Bachur's fault
But for the love of G-d it cannot be the religious-loving IDF.
Yeah Rafi, talk again about how open minded you are
Rafi,
ReplyDeleteeven though there are rather decent enough religious units now,
If a religious male want to rise in the ranks,
He must serve in totally coed units and more
And that was even before Leiberman starting signed on to the Feminist/Rainbow driven agenda
Even to a person unaffiliated with this problem, it is plain old fashioned common sense, besides the evidence as brought up above in the comments, that the army is not a place for the chareidim and the sole purpose for forcing this issue on them is to secularize them. You don't have to be a chacham to understand that. Secularization is now being done in every area of life in Israel and even in other countries. This is an agenda, no doubt.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a plan!
DeleteWow, are you being attacked, Rafi! I have not served in the IDF, but my son did go to Sha’alvim, a hesder Yeshiva. No doubt about the Kollel guys I met who were so proud to serve, learn, and defend again if needed. Anon, maybe the agenda is to make people who benefit give back? And curious, what in your opinion is ‘a normal Israeli’?
ReplyDeleteThe Steipler ztz"l told someone before enlisting that what can make or break a frum person in the army is how he uses his free time - he clearly held that it is quite possible to come out as frum as you went in.
ReplyDeleteRafi, you can't even get the Rav's name correct, but you know he's a liar? Go on, try and find out his name, its not hard :-)
ReplyDelete-LFD " Sha’alvim, a hesder Yeshiva." Bochrim who go to hesder are a highly motivated, self selected group, the case Rav Mazuz refers to seems to be a random yeshiva bochur.
Rav mazuz runs a highly elite yeshiva. Not so easy to get in.
Deletehesder boys also drop religion, and hesder boys also keep religion. haredi boys drop religion and haredi boys keep religion. there are no rules. an environment for giving the bosy the best chance to keep it is provided. often, anecdotally from what I have seen, a boy that does not stay frum was already on that path before he ended up in the army.
DeleteI had a discussion with a Haredi friend from Kiryat Sefer about the draft law a number of years ago. He made an interesting point that he said that the non-Haredim don't understand about this issue. He said in general the Haredim currently going into the army tend to be the misfits who don't fit in the mold the Haredi community. It could be they are not learners or already at risk of going OTD etc... His point was that privately the community didn't mind having the army take those kids off of their hands. Their fear is the army coming for those who are able to sit in Yeshiva full time.
ReplyDeleteAssuming his assessment is correct, it would explain the anecdote sited by the Rav. They send those who are already going to be lost by the community and then blame the army for the outcome.
It would also explain the approach the tame approach the Haredim are taking to opposing the current draft law. Litzman has promised to topple the Government after it becomes law, when he has the option of quitting before to stop it from going through. As long as the quotas are low enough, they don't have a problem with the less committed members of their community going to the army.
that is largely, if not completely true, I think. it is mostly the boys who no longer want to spend their entire days sitting and learning in the beis medrash, or they already havent for a long time and are frustrated and are looking for a way to do something else and move on to a productive life.
DeleteIt should become a volunteer army with no draft. Wonder how many would stay in yeshiva when that happens.
ReplyDeletedlz,
ReplyDeleteVery cute to paste something (from someone like that) so out of context.
Thomas,
It has been bandied about so often.
However what is ignored is the IDF is likely the prime glue that holds the country's collectiveness and cohesiveness still largely together.
This was the place of strong [male] bonding over that spans societal myriad sectors andethnic groups
Push it aside all that there is beyond is staggering socioeconomic [and racial] pyramids
Attempt to remove the Army Draft and what will still remain?
I can't imagine how a chareidi young man could serve in the army. He will begin Shabbos at Plag, he'll refuse to end Shabbos until three hours after shki'ah, he will not eat anything that wasn't prepared by a chareidi from Badatz approved food, he will have his chumros from home that are completely inconsistent with serving or taking orders. This is a farce. Forget about serving in the army. It's absurd. It's time to move the conversation to alternate national service.
ReplyDeletethere are many issues. as long as there is a mandatory draft, this discussion will continue, as why should the entire nation be required to spend 3 years in the army while one sector automatically is exempted from that. Perhaps at some point the solution will be to revisit the efficacy of mandatory army service.
DeleteEliezer E,
ReplyDeleteThat is a weak argument
Serving may be according to many a very big mitzva.If serving is a very big mitzva, then one surely ought to temporarily override their personal chumros
They don't realize there are differences between halacha and personal chumrot.
DeleteNot wearing a shtreimel is goyish, not DLish. For example.
Chaya Cohen, You're right. It's a weak argument. But there are rules for what overrides what. "If..., then..." is an invalid consequent. All this is just talk. The fact remains that unless it were a matter of imminent danger to life, what you consider chumros would be yeihareig v'al yaavor. That's the reality.
ReplyDelete