I contacted the CRC kashrus organization online to ask about this idea. The response they gave me was that nowadays the allowance of pas palter does not apply (I asked specifically about mass produced breads). Upon further questioning they explained that nowadays, with yeasts, oils and preservatives being added to the breads, they all need supervision and one cannot assume mass produced breads are kosher.
I do not know if there are other opinions on this matter, but I felt it was important to bring you this information. Again, if you find yourself in a situation where you need or want to eat these breads, you should consult with a kashrus expert or knowledgeable rabbi to determine what is allowed and what is not.
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GOSH! A corporation whose income is from kashrut supervision told you that the halacha that says it isn't needed no longer applies?! Whatever next? swoons
ReplyDeleteFollow-up question for CRC: What's the statistical likelihood that the yeasts, oils and preservatives they'd potentially use are animal-derived? What percentage of the total volume of yeasts, oils and preservatives used for bread products in the US are animal-derived?
ReplyDelete(Shouldn't be too hard to research, as I would assume that the market is controlled by a few mega-suppliers and any food chemist involved in the industry would know how common it would be that any of these ingredients are animal-derived or produced in plants that use the same vessels for animal-derived products.)
Kashrus organizations always focus on what is "possible" ("Who knows?") and provide little data as to whether any of those concerns are statistically significant.
DeleteOne might wonder to what extent those concerns are anachronistic today, given the great reliance on synthetic ingredients and concentration of sourcing within huge plants that don't easily change the way the they produce things.
As shown in the transcript below, Bimbo is not changing any of their ingredients. Whether their suppliers will be changing their processing, I cannot say.
I contacted Bimbo.
ReplyDeleteHere is the transcript:
David 12/11/18 12:49:23 - Hi.
I understand that your company will be dropping its kosher supervision of many of your bread and cake products. Does that mean those products will now have animal-derived ingredients, other than milk-derived ones?
12/11/18 12:49:24 - ** Thank you for waiting. You are number 1 in line.
12/11/18 12:49:38 - Thank you for waiting. You are now talking with Brooke.
Brooke 12/11/18 12:49:42 - Hi David!
Brooke 12/11/18 12:49:48 - What brand are you inquiring about
David 12/11/18 12:51:28 - Arnold, Entemann's, Freehoff's, and all your other brands that had kosher supervision until now.
Brooke 12/11/18 12:52:49 - Entenmann's products will be remaining Kosher. So, anything from that brand that was Kosher will still be Kosher.
Brooke 12/11/18 12:53:04 - As far as the other brands, the recipes and ingredients will not be changing.
David 12/11/18 12:55:26 - The question would be whether you were changing suppliers, so that, for instance, the oils might potentially be animal-derived, rather than vegetable-derived.
Brooke 12/11/18 12:55:42 - Suppliers will not be changing either.
Brooke 12/11/18 12:56:08 - The decision to remove the kosher certification from our bread products was strictly a business process decision to enable more efficient operations.
David 12/11/18 12:57:54 - So it was just a financial decision to drop the supervsion, not because there would be a change in ingredients? And that vegetarian-conscious consumers can remain confident?
Brooke 12/11/18 12:58:35 - There will not be a change in ingredients or suppliers.
David 12/11/18 12:58:47 - Ok. Thanks.
Brooke 12/11/18 12:58:53 - You're welcome!
Brooke 12/11/18 12:58:56 - Thank you. If you have further questions, please feel free to contact us again, 1-800-984-0989. They can best answer your questions.
Confirmation #001582931A.
Brooke 12/11/18 12:58:56 - Has left the chat session.
fabulous! thank you!
DeleteSo now it's a clear understood that anyone who truly keeps kosher and would have bought the bread when it had the OU or other kosher certifications, can no longer eat any of these breads or cakes as they no longer have certification, even if they say everything otherwise remains the same. This seems to be the beginning of the slippery slope as other things which were taken for granted of being kosher (with cert. of course) can no longer be considered as being kosher.
ReplyDeleteGenack explained that the decision stems from a mix of corporate efficiency and obscure kosher laws: Bimbo wants the flexibility to produce its breads on the same factory lines as breads that contain dairy products. Because traditional Jewish law says meat and dairy products cannot be consumed at the same meal, breads for the kosher market must be strictly nondairy unless they appear and are marketed as obviously dairy — like cheese bread, says Senter.
ReplyDelete“Their primary concern is one of flexibility within their plants, that they can produce it on other lines that are not necessarily designated for kosher,” Genack said.
https://www.jta.org/2018/12/11/food/baking-giant-drops-kosher-certification-for-almost-all-of-its-bread?utm_content=buffer48214&utm_medium=social&utm_source=jtafacebook&utm_campaign=social
the real question is how was pas palter ever allowed, if it isnt allowed today out of such concerns.. you never really knew if the bread was kosher or made in the same oven as non kosher breads or what oils thye used, etc. sure today it is more complicated with preservatives and yeasts and whatever else they put in, but besides for ingredients the same concerns could have been relevant 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 300 years ago. yet pas palter was always allowed and eaten by most people until recently
ReplyDeleteMore complicated today?
DeleteBecause of preservatives and yeasts, which don't come from animals?
You're kidding, right?
In the alte heim, they used the village's communal oven, which had previously been used with actual lard. Lard!
As Rabbi Genack explained, it has nothing to do with non kosher ingredients, but about the bread's being produced on equipment that might have been previously used with KOSHER dairy, meaning that although the present bread would also be kosher, it could not be used with fleishig and would not be packaged with a dairy equipment warning.
The hashgochos are assuming that the laws that applied to tiny ovens that could not be properly cleaned apply as well to the massive ovens that are used in commercial operations.
Not for me to pasken, but that does seem to be the issue.
Rabbi Yaakov Felder is the Chairman of COR and was my Rabbi when I was still living in Toronto. A few times a year he would devote his drasha to share practical stories of the types of Kashrut challenges COR had dealt with. One of the underlying points in these stories, is he wanted people to understand that in commercial production, we rely on lenientcies that we would never accept in our own personal homes.
DeleteIt would be interesting to know whether ANY of the breads distributed in the USA by this company have non-kosher ingredients or come into contact with non-kosher ingredients.
Delete.. or are produced on equipment that comes into contact with non-kosher ingredients.
DeleteIf there's no reason to think the bread is non-kosher, but only that it was possibly produced on dairy equipment, I wonder why people with few other options can't just treat it that way, as bread that should not be eaten with a milchig meal and label it as such when bringing it into their homes.
ReplyDelete.. that is, bread that should not be eaten with a fleishig meal.
Deletedairy bread without a siman is not kosher. people will forget and eat it the wrong way.
DeleteSome kashrut organizations in the US allow it, as long as the package is marked accordingly. In other words, they consider marking the packaging as equivalent to marking the bread itself
DeleteI see that what I wrote above is outdated. The hashgocha that used to certify dairy bread, labeled as such on the wrapping, no longer does.
DeleteHowever, in the case of Bimbo, we're not taking about dairy bread, but dairy equipment bread.