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Oct 22, 2007
Ever hear of this minhag?
I am a yekke (and am proud of it). I do most of my minhagim according to the German custom.
That means I wash before kiddush, wait three hours after meat before eating dairy, do not wash mayim achronim, wear tallis after a minha aliya until after kedusha, etc.. (among many others).
The thing is, I did not grow up in a yekke community and did not grow up in a yekkish shul. I am therefore lacking in my knowledge of many minhagim related to the prayer services. It is not such a big deal because I still do not daven in a yekke shul (there is none where I live) so it probably would not work out anyway.
My brother told me that my Opa (grandfather for you non-yekkes out there) used to say that we (Yekkes) do not say "Baruch Hu U'Varuch Sh'mo" during brachos.
I never heard of this minhag to not say it and am curious if there is such a minhag and what the reason for it is.
I do remember being surprised when I learned that one should say it because I never said it as a child and only began doing so when I went to Yeshiva High School (which in America has become identified as the greatest cause of people not knowing their own minhagim and taking on other peoples generic minhagim).
Sometimes I thought we did not say things just because we did not know better, but over time I have found that a number of the things we did not say were because of minhag (such as the bracha at maariv said in America before shmoneh esrei for the latecomers), though there were also some that were not said probably out of laziness (such as "V'Yiten Lecha" on Saturday nights).
Anybody hear of such a minhag?
That means I wash before kiddush, wait three hours after meat before eating dairy, do not wash mayim achronim, wear tallis after a minha aliya until after kedusha, etc.. (among many others).
The thing is, I did not grow up in a yekke community and did not grow up in a yekkish shul. I am therefore lacking in my knowledge of many minhagim related to the prayer services. It is not such a big deal because I still do not daven in a yekke shul (there is none where I live) so it probably would not work out anyway.
My brother told me that my Opa (grandfather for you non-yekkes out there) used to say that we (Yekkes) do not say "Baruch Hu U'Varuch Sh'mo" during brachos.
I never heard of this minhag to not say it and am curious if there is such a minhag and what the reason for it is.
I do remember being surprised when I learned that one should say it because I never said it as a child and only began doing so when I went to Yeshiva High School (which in America has become identified as the greatest cause of people not knowing their own minhagim and taking on other peoples generic minhagim).
Sometimes I thought we did not say things just because we did not know better, but over time I have found that a number of the things we did not say were because of minhag (such as the bracha at maariv said in America before shmoneh esrei for the latecomers), though there were also some that were not said probably out of laziness (such as "V'Yiten Lecha" on Saturday nights).
Anybody hear of such a minhag?
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I am not a yekke. Mostly russian, in fact. 3/4 i think. But I remember not saying baruch hu for sometime through my youth. It wasn't until i was a teenage until i knew it was even 4 words.
ReplyDeleteBut that could have to do with the fact that my father is a baal tshuva, and he may have adapted the minhag not to say it, or he just may not have said it for no reason... dunno.
One would better ask for the reason for a given minhag - unless it's written in the gemara, the onus is upon those communities who accept it to have a reason, not those communities who don't (IIUC, your 3-hour minhag is harder to justify from the poskim - although still valid - than the 1-hour minhag, given than neither one accepted the 6-hour minhag reported by a number of rishonim).
ReplyDeleteSome specifically don't say bhub"sh during chazaras ha-shatz b/c the theory is that one is supposed to be able to be yotzei through the tefillah of the sh"tz (although in practice, it's not done) - this is the same reason why some stand with their feet together during chazaras ha-shatz. This being the case, they wouldn't be mafsik in the middle of the brachos of the sh"tz so as to be listening attentively the entire time. Even if one is merely saying amen to a bracha w/o intent to be yotzei, it may still be considered problematic to be missing a word or two in the middle (since the shatzim rarely - and shouldn't - pause in the middle of the bracha long enough for people to cleanly say the words).
One of my rabbeim in high school mentioned that it was minhag HaGRA not to say since there are many times that it would be considered a hefsek and therefore he recomended not saying it at all anytime for any bracha.
ReplyDeleter. soloveitchik did not say it during hazarat ha-shatz, based on minhag ha-gra. the rav followed the opinion that hazarat ha-shatz is תפלה בצבור and one must behave as he does during the silent amidah. he thus remained standing with his feet together for the entire hazarat ha-shatz, insisted that everything be said out loud by the shaliah tzibbur (eg hashem sefatai tiftah . . .) and considered barukh hu . . . to be a hefsek. see "hanhagos harav" nos. 8-10 in mahzor masoret harav (rosh hashanah)
ReplyDeleteI'm cumming back! send me your thoughts and stories!
ReplyDeleteFYI- The Gr"A also didn't say it.
ReplyDeleteOT!
ReplyDeleteRafi, you are our man in Beit Shemesh.
Can you give us some non-MSM information about this?
cosmic - I have been trying to get info all day about that story. Nobody seems to know anything more than what was printed in the articles... kinda makes me wonder if it is true
ReplyDeleteas far as I know, yekkish minhagim have no connection to minhagei ha'gra. is that not true?
ReplyDeleteMy husband davens at a yekke shul here in Beitar. I can vouch that they did respond baruch hu, at least during bircas hatorah (the only part of the service I attended). My husband was raised with some of the yekkishe minhagim, but through this minyan we are learning soooo many new ones. He still hasn't really explained to me about the different pronunciation for the "o" and "ah" sounds. Apparently we don't do upsherin, as it's a Sephardi minhag that the Chassidim (and everyone else) picked up.
ReplyDeleteThe Yekke minyan in Ramot is also supposed to be good source of info for anyone who wants to learn. This past shabbos my husband was also discussing which zmiros are Yekke, who knew?
as far as I know, yekkish minhagim have no connection to minhagei ha'gra. is that not true?
ReplyDeleteIt is true. There were close ties between the Jews of Ashkenaz and Lita- more so later on, but the connection was Ashkenaz money being donated for yeshivot in Lita.
It wasn't abut the Gaon. It was much more so about the Haskalah and the Chassidim.
Anonymous said: Apparently we don't do upsherin, as it's a Sephardi minhag that the Chassidim (and everyone else) picked up.
ReplyDeleteRafi - do you do upsherim? Personally, it is not my minhag, and I don't want to do it. However, my wife is concerned we will be ostracized if we don't do it, and "they" wont let us in "their" schools. I'm not as concerned, but then again, i didn't grow up here. I am really hoping I'm pulled into doing a minhag i don't want to do. What are your thoughts?
we have four boys and have never done an upsherin. we give the kid a haircut when he needs it.. Considering how bald our children are (and our adults for that matter), that usually is not so early as it is :-)
ReplyDeleteNot saying BHVS is a legitimate minhag derived from a number of sources.
ReplyDeleteA.
anon A - please explain... and who has this legitimate minhag?
ReplyDeleteWow - you are a yekke too! Every time we have guests for Shabbat we have to explain washing before kiddush. Due to the fact that both my husband and I are baalei teshuva (both fathers were born and grew up in Germany before coming to America) we do not know every single yekke minhag - but a friend told me that we do not light a Yahrzeit candle on every chag - just Yom Kippur and the actual Yahrzeit of a loved one.
ReplyDeleteyekkes we are...
ReplyDeletemy mother however comes from Polish background, so our food minhagim come from her... and she lit the candles so that also comes from her....
"My brother told me that my Opa (grandfather for you non-yekkes out there) used to say that we (Yekkes) do not say "Baruch Hu U'Varuch Sh'mo" during brachos."
ReplyDeletePerhaps the report is not totally accurate. Maybe he personally did that, but Yekkes in general do say it.
"over time I have found that a number of the things we did not say were because of minhag (such as the bracha at maariv said in America before shmoneh esrei for the latecomers), though there were also some that were not said probably out of laziness (such as "V'Yiten Lecha" on Saturday nights)."
Yekke minhag is to say both of those in Shul. Evidently, in Eretz Yisroel most Shuls don't do A (Boruch Hashem leolom...), but in chutz laaretz it is generally said. Re B (viyiten licho), firstly the Yekke version is somewhat different (shorter) than the Eastern European one and secondly, it is minhag Ashkenaz to say, just that the Ari said to say it at home, not in Shul, so some stopped saying it there. Evidently, some then stopped saying it altogether once it was not said in Shul.
whatsinaname - re Upsherin - just stick to your minhag (not to do it). There is a comprehensive chapter about it in the sefer שרשי מנהג אשכּנז חלק ג if you need clarification about the Yekke minhag re haircutting of young boys.
ReplyDeleteThat and מכון מורשת אשכּנז are good sources for info on מנהגי אשכּנז.
M - I always thought yekkish minhag was not to say baruch hashem l'olam... v'yiten lecha I know the minhag is to say but I never said it and find it too long to start saying...
ReplyDeletethat is an interesting explanation on v'yiten lecha. thanks
This is a minhag of the GRA. It was observed by Rav Soleveitchik as well. The reasons are:
ReplyDelete1) it might be a hefsek to say it in the middle of a bracha
2) there is never enough time to really say baruch hu uvaruch shemo and you will still be saying it while the chazzan continues with the bracha and you will not hear the words of the bracha.
- It shows how serious listening to the chazaras hashatz really is, something we often neglect.
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Not that it's connected to the Yekkishe minhag or the minhag HaGra, but, the minhag of Yemenite Jews is also not to say Baruch Hu Uvaruch Shemo.
ReplyDelete