Now that RYSE has proclaimed that it is a chovah to vote "gimmel" - how does RCM get out of it? Does he hold is simply a machlokes him and RYSE if indeed there is a chovah or if its reshus?
thanks
February 08, 2009 2:10 AM
Rafi Goldmeier said... you'd have to ask him.
And what do you "hold" - since RYSE claims its a psak halacha, you cant just ignore a psak from a viable poseik, can you?
I don't understand - you are asking me to pasken something where Rav Elyashiv has already paskened? I have no right. I am not a posek. If you wish to debate the issue, I will offer you my opinion. If you are asking me for a psak, I am not qualified.
That being said, if you think this is a "shailoh" that requires a psak, by all means listen to Rav Elyashiv or any other rav of your choice. If you believe it is not a shailoh, and does not require a psak, then you would not be obligated to listen to the psak, because the psak is irrelevant (if this is your opinion). For example, if you hear Rav Anonymous Gadol HaDor pasken that you should dip your challah in salt rather than put salt on your challah - and your whole life you have been putting the salt on your challa. So, now that you heard the psak from the gadol - are you going to just change what you have been doing? What about your minhag? You had no shailoh, so perhaps his psak is irrelevant to you, and only relevant to those who had a shailoh and did not know what to do.
Same thin g here - if you have a shailoh, and dont know what to do, and Rav Elyashiv's psak is relevant to you, and you prefer to listen to his psak, or a different rav's psak, by all means, go ahead.
If you had no shailoh to start with, then his psak is just an opinion, perhaps a recommendation, perhaps a psak for other people, but it is not a psak for you.
I think you are missing a chiluk. On a halachic shaila, the reason why you need not listen to RYSE's psak is not only that you didnt ask him. Its because there is a machlokes haposkim, and you need not listen to him over your rov / minhag etc.
Here he is coming out and paskening that one needs to vote gimmel. He is not responding to a question. He is not coming to be mach'ria a machlokes.
Moreover, this is a klal matter, not a private affair. What you do in your personal life, is a personal issue. You have your personal rov, yoru personal minhag your personal hanhaga. This is a tzibbur issue. An individual, or a rov of lower stature can not paskin a tzibbur issue.
This is how - to the best of my recollection - explained why certain "lower stature" rabbis can not be paskening on womens tefila groups, as its a tzibur issue.
This is actually brought out in this weeks parsha, that for smal shailas, we go to sara asaros. For bigger shailos, sara chamishim, etc. For the "home run" issues - the major tzibbur issues - we go to the Gedolim. We dont leave the ball in our own court.
As an aside, I seem to recal that when the pashkevilim about the sheitlach came out a few months ago, you said that the RYSE-followers need to follow him here. But this chiluk would apply there, and exactly as you said. He is not my rov, i did not have a shaila, i have my own minhagim etc.
But on tzibur issues, we follow the gedolei yisroel. Do you not see an difference between a tzibbur issue and a yachid issue? Do you not see any difference between when RYSE responds to a private question, or when he goes and proclaims his opinion to the whole world? Surely you see a difference.
I see you point, but what is considered a tzibbur issue can be very debatable. You said the sheitel issue is not a tzibbur issue, but womens tefilla groups are. I can see othe rpeople saying sheitels are just as much a tzibur issue as womens tefilla groups. If Rav Elyashiv made a statement on the matter, perhaps he thought so as well.
Anyway, again, that is still only if you consider somethign a shailoh that needs a hachra'a. if it is not something that needs a hachra'a then it is just an interesting statement, perhaps relevant to other people, made by a gadol.
When Rav Elyashiv paskens "no internet". Is that not a tzibbur issue? Determining the hanhaga of the whole tzibbur, similar to the way "no tv" was decided and became pretty much accepted by almost everybody? Yet how many people listen to Rav Elyashiv on that, even though it can easily be understood as a "tzibbur issue"? Some do, I would venture to guess, with no numbers backing me up, that most do not. At least most people I know do not. Even those who claim to live the lifestyle that they do follow every word of the gadol hador, most of the ones I know do not (though I know plenty that do). I know I don't, but I do not pretend to suggest that I follow everything he says..
1) I dont think he called on any specific tzibbur other than bnei torah.
2) I dont know where your kids go to school, but I am sure that the schools they go to - both boys and girls - would consider themselves part of RYSE's tzibbur. Andcertainly the "gimmel" tzibbur.
my kids might go to any specific school for a variety of reasons. Why should that be what decides anything? Perhaps it will determine what my kids do in the future, and how they will later associate themselves...
I did not come to the Holy Land only to see it compromised for money. Gimmel's history is that they are mainly in it for the money and did not cause an uproar over Gush Katif, the same way they would if some cemetery was in danger.
Holy - I know rabbonim who say that you should vote for whichever party you think will be best for eretz yisrael. whether that is a religious party or not.
Thank you for the articles and talkback. What's interesting is that I guess many of us fit into the following mold: We outwardly identify ourselves as Hareidi (hat/sheitel/no tv etc); we send our kids to hareidi schools/yeshivas; we want/expect them to be what we are not - namely "not quite there".
Every election for the past 20 years I am in Israel, I have voted UTJ. To be honest, I have very little respect for them; don't agree with their policies (seemingly non-existant) other than their religious ones; and don't see why I should vote for them.
So what to do? Vote Shas? All the loshon hora I've heard about them over the years has unfortunately taken hold - Is their party platform similar to my own beliefs? Yes. do I trust them - don't know.
Ichud Leumi is weak on secular marriage etc., so feel bad voting them. Oh boy - 24 hours to go - help!!!!!! Life is so much simpler when you don't follow the news; don't think too much - and just follow a Rav!
that's for sure... I think most of us, coming from western countries and making aliyah to Israel have a different definition of what is haredi than the average Israeli haredi, and the haredi society in general in Israel. That is how this conflict comes up. Even if you subscribe to it, you don't really understand ti much of the time, so you take every goofy thing that someone who looks haredi suggests, and then you justify it as a haredi moral or belief, even though 99.9% of haredim would reject it (see the mehadrin bus discussion as an example of this)...
Thank you for these two very important and helpful posts.
ReplyDeleteיישר כח
Can you get more parties too?
ReplyDeleteKeep up the good work.
at this point? no way! Anyways, it was hard enough to manage and get done with two parties. I dont know how it would have worked out with more...
ReplyDeleteNow that RYSE has proclaimed that it is a chovah to vote "gimmel" - how does RCM get out of it? Does he hold is simply a machlokes him and RYSE if indeed there is a chovah or if its reshus?
ReplyDeletethanks
February 08, 2009 2:10 AM
Rafi Goldmeier said...
you'd have to ask him.
And what do you "hold" - since RYSE claims its a psak halacha, you cant just ignore a psak from a viable poseik, can you?
I don't understand - you are asking me to pasken something where Rav Elyashiv has already paskened? I have no right. I am not a posek. If you wish to debate the issue, I will offer you my opinion. If you are asking me for a psak, I am not qualified.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, if you think this is a "shailoh" that requires a psak, by all means listen to Rav Elyashiv or any other rav of your choice. If you believe it is not a shailoh, and does not require a psak, then you would not be obligated to listen to the psak, because the psak is irrelevant (if this is your opinion).
For example, if you hear Rav Anonymous Gadol HaDor pasken that you should dip your challah in salt rather than put salt on your challah - and your whole life you have been putting the salt on your challa.
So, now that you heard the psak from the gadol - are you going to just change what you have been doing? What about your minhag? You had no shailoh, so perhaps his psak is irrelevant to you, and only relevant to those who had a shailoh and did not know what to do.
Same thin g here - if you have a shailoh, and dont know what to do, and Rav Elyashiv's psak is relevant to you, and you prefer to listen to his psak, or a different rav's psak, by all means, go ahead.
If you had no shailoh to start with, then his psak is just an opinion, perhaps a recommendation, perhaps a psak for other people, but it is not a psak for you.
Those are my thoughts on the matter.
I think you are missing a chiluk. On a halachic shaila, the reason why you need not listen to RYSE's psak is not only that you didnt ask him. Its because there is a machlokes haposkim, and you need not listen to him over your rov / minhag etc.
ReplyDeleteHere he is coming out and paskening that one needs to vote gimmel. He is not responding to a question. He is not coming to be mach'ria a machlokes.
Moreover, this is a klal matter, not a private affair. What you do in your personal life, is a personal issue. You have your personal rov, yoru personal minhag your personal hanhaga. This is a tzibbur issue. An individual, or a rov of lower stature can not paskin a tzibbur issue.
This is how - to the best of my recollection - explained why certain "lower stature" rabbis can not be paskening on womens tefila groups, as its a tzibur issue.
This is actually brought out in this weeks parsha, that for smal shailas, we go to sara asaros. For bigger shailos, sara chamishim, etc. For the "home run" issues - the major tzibbur issues - we go to the Gedolim. We dont leave the ball in our own court.
As an aside, I seem to recal that when the pashkevilim about the sheitlach came out a few months ago, you said that the RYSE-followers need to follow him here. But this chiluk would apply there, and exactly as you said. He is not my rov, i did not have a shaila, i have my own minhagim etc.
But on tzibur issues, we follow the gedolei yisroel. Do you not see an difference between a tzibbur issue and a yachid issue? Do you not see any difference between when RYSE responds to a private question, or when he goes and proclaims his opinion to the whole world? Surely you see a difference.
I see you point, but what is considered a tzibbur issue can be very debatable. You said the sheitel issue is not a tzibbur issue, but womens tefilla groups are. I can see othe rpeople saying sheitels are just as much a tzibur issue as womens tefilla groups. If Rav Elyashiv made a statement on the matter, perhaps he thought so as well.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, again, that is still only if you consider somethign a shailoh that needs a hachra'a. if it is not something that needs a hachra'a then it is just an interesting statement, perhaps relevant to other people, made by a gadol.
When Rav Elyashiv paskens "no internet". Is that not a tzibbur issue? Determining the hanhaga of the whole tzibbur, similar to the way "no tv" was decided and became pretty much accepted by almost everybody? Yet how many people listen to Rav Elyashiv on that, even though it can easily be understood as a "tzibbur issue"? Some do, I would venture to guess, with no numbers backing me up, that most do not. At least most people I know do not. Even those who claim to live the lifestyle that they do follow every word of the gadol hador, most of the ones I know do not (though I know plenty that do). I know I don't, but I do not pretend to suggest that I follow everything he says..
and then there is always the issue of whether or not you consider yourself part of that tzibbur.... :-)
ReplyDelete1) I dont think he called on any specific tzibbur other than bnei torah.
ReplyDelete2) I dont know where your kids go to school, but I am sure that the schools they go to - both boys and girls - would consider themselves part of RYSE's tzibbur. Andcertainly the "gimmel" tzibbur.
The spokesman got a last name!
ReplyDeletemy kids might go to any specific school for a variety of reasons. Why should that be what decides anything? Perhaps it will determine what my kids do in the future, and how they will later associate themselves...
ReplyDeleteI did not come to the Holy Land only to see it compromised for money. Gimmel's history is that they are mainly in it for the money and did not cause an uproar over Gush Katif, the same way they would if some cemetery was in danger.
ReplyDeleteHoly - I know rabbonim who say that you should vote for whichever party you think will be best for eretz yisrael. whether that is a religious party or not.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the articles and talkback. What's interesting is that I guess many of us fit into the following mold: We outwardly identify ourselves as Hareidi (hat/sheitel/no tv etc); we send our kids to hareidi schools/yeshivas; we want/expect them to be what we are not - namely "not quite there".
ReplyDeleteEvery election for the past 20 years I am in Israel, I have voted UTJ. To be honest, I have very little respect for them; don't agree with their policies (seemingly non-existant) other than their religious ones; and don't see why I should vote for them.
So what to do? Vote Shas? All the loshon hora I've heard about them over the years has unfortunately taken hold - Is their party platform similar to my own beliefs? Yes. do I trust them - don't know.
Ichud Leumi is weak on secular marriage etc., so feel bad voting them. Oh boy - 24 hours to go - help!!!!!! Life is so much simpler when you don't follow the news; don't think too much - and just follow a Rav!
that's for sure...
ReplyDeleteI think most of us, coming from western countries and making aliyah to Israel have a different definition of what is haredi than the average Israeli haredi, and the haredi society in general in Israel. That is how this conflict comes up. Even if you subscribe to it, you don't really understand ti much of the time, so you take every goofy thing that someone who looks haredi suggests, and then you justify it as a haredi moral or belief, even though 99.9% of haredim would reject it (see the mehadrin bus discussion as an example of this)...