Likud - Yisrael Beiteinu Online Debate

Before we begin the debate, I would like to thank those who made it happen. Jason Swirsky, of Frozen Politics, Eh', a supporter of Yisrael Beiteinu, came up with the idea of holding the debate and approached me, a supporter of the Likud. Together we worked on the details and made it happen.

We want to thank Danny Hershtal who is the debater for the Yisrael Beiteinu party, and Ariela Cotler who is the debater for the Likud party. Ariela and Danny devoted a lot of time to presenting their ideas and points, time that they did not have available, and time in which they had plenty of other important things to be doing.

The idea of the debate is that the Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu are very similar parties, and their direction and campaigning is really targeting many of the same people. This debate is an attempt to find some of the nuances differentiating between the two parties, and present them to you, so you can make an informed choice.

Our two debaters are Ariela Cotler and Danny Hershtal:

Danny Hershtal is number 22 on Yisrael Beiteinu's candidates' list and coordinator of the party's English Language campaign. Hershtal is originally from Toronto, Canada and studied at Yeshivat Har Etzion in Alon Shvut and at Yeshiva University. He is a former head of Bnei Akiva of Toronto and Chair of the Council of Zionist Youth Organizations. He made Aliyah in 2002 and served as Yisrael Beytenu's English spokesman and foreign media liaison during the 2006 election campaign. Danny lives in Kiryat Shmuel, Haifa with his wife and 3 children.



Ariela Cotler, a native of Jerusalem was educated at The Hebrew
University of Jerusalem and received her B.A. in History and Philosophy. She later studied at McGill University where she received her SSW and MSW degrees. Mrs. Cotler worked as Parliamentary Secretary in the Likud Party of Israel from 1967 to 1979. She also acted as Legislative Assistant for Likud Members of the Knesset, including responsibilities in areas of Media Relations, Speech writing, Public Affairs, Political Organization, and Legislative Drafting.
In Israel, she received citations from former Prime Minister Menachem Begin, and former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir for Parliamentary Work (1979). In Canada, she was the recipient of the Bess Pascal Leadership Recognition Award from the Montreal Federation. Ariela Cotler is the former Chair of the State of Israel Bonds Women's Division and was also appointed Montreal Director of Israel Bonds.

Again, thank you to both Ariela and Danny for taking the time to participate in this venture.

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The debate was based on 6 questions. Each question was sent to both sides to respond with their position. Then there was a series of four opportunities, two each, to respond to and rebut the opponent, and to fine tune their own positions.

Now, on to the debate!
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The following is the list of Questions that were debated between Ariela and Danny:

1. The IDF has once again pulled out of Gaza. What does the government need to do to prevent the need for future military operations?
2. Can a voter know what route a party will take AFTER the election (relative to the promises made during the campaign)?
3. What should Israel's relationship, as a Jewish country, be with the Israeli Arab citizens?
4. Why might a religious voter vote for your secular party rather than a religious party? i.e. How will your party relate to religious issues and provide the needs of the religious voter.
5. Where do you see Arab/Israeli relations heading in the next 5 years (please relate to Israel's relationship with the PA, Syria and any other Arab country you wish to relate to)"?
6. Is it better for the governing party to have a lot of mandates in order to govern as they please, or to have a weaker governing party with the smaller parties holding the balance of power

The answers and responses are the exact words of the debaters. I have only done basic editing including corrected spelling and adjusting formatting.
I randomly chose Danny's text to be written in blue, and Ariela's in green, to make it easier for you to see who wrote what. Do not ascribe any meaning to the colors chosen.

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Q1: The IDF has once again pulled out of Gaza. What does the government need to do to prevent the need for future military operations?

Danny:

1. Seal our borders and demand Gilad Shalit's return.
2. Respond with fire to any breach of the ceasefire, be it launching rockets towards Israel or smuggling in materiel.
3. Drive Hamas underground by declaring our intention to resume targeted assassinations of their leaders.
   

Carrying out these threats will return our deterrence and show our strength of will. Hopefully, this will force Hamas to respect our borders and prevent the need for another incursion.

Ariela: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to participate in this debate. It is important for me to clarify one personal point from the outset: I am neither a candidate nor an official worker of the Likud. I am a volunteer, who feels the urgency and danger of these days. All the views expressed in the debate are mine, based on my understanding and knowledge of the people and ideology of the party I have the honor to represent.

As for the question - Chazal taught us: "Sof Maase bemachshava Tchila" .

This government made more mistakes in three years then any other. The problems around Gaza started with the unilateral withdrawal three years ago. Immediately after it, both the then P.M. Sharon and the minister of defense Mofaz, announced that "now, Israel will be able to react with all it's force, with the first violation of the peace, we will not allow our civilian population to suffer rockets etc..."
shortly after - Gilad was kidnapped... The gov't repeatedly said that it's doing everything in it's power to bring him home, and stop the shooting...

Nothing was done until three weeks ago, and when it finally did - the job was not completed - Gilad Shalit is still there, Hamas is re-opening the tunnels and declaring it's intention to destroy Israel, and Israel is again counting on Egypt to guard Philadelphi - (something they were committed to when Sharon's gov't GAVE them the control at the time of the Hitnatkot, and did nothing!)

So what does a Gov't have to do in order to avoid a repeat performance? BE TRUE to what it promises - if it is committed to respond - RESPOND, if our soldiers are kidnapped - and they say they are doing everything - DO IT. Why did this campaign end the way it did? a responsible Gov't should have reacted long time ago - in 2006, before Hamas became so strong, and the people of Sderot and area suffered thousands of Kasssams. A responsible gov't should FINISH the job, and declare from the outset that NOT ONE of our soldier will leave Gaza before we have Gilad Shalit in our hands! make it clear - both to the enemy, as well as diplomatically to the rest of the world -that WE MEAN WHAT WE SAY. This did not happen. It could not happen with weak leadership.

Danny: Since I agree with my counterpart's assessment, I will reply by resorting to ad hominem attacks. Shalom, Steinitz, Eitan, Livnat: current Likud candidates who voted for disengagement. Saar pushed for a referendum but worked to keep Sharon in power. Netanyahu only quit when the plan would definitely pass. Avigdor Lieberman and Uzi Landau fought the disengagement at the cost of their jobs. Who can be trusted not to repeat the grave mistakes my counterpart cited?

Ariela: I can agree, in retrospect,that this behavior seems today to have been a "mistake". HOWEVER -AT THE TIME -they hoped that Sharon will accept the verdict of the Merkaz and the referendum - he didn't - They left.
Same argument can be used against Lieberman. He jointed Olmert's gov't while it was committed to a total withdrawal from Judea and Samaria -including Jerusalem. He kept this corrupt gov't in power. This gov't would have fallen long time ago if not for Lieberman's support...

It is a tactical mistake for Israel Beiteinu to focus it's attacks on Likud. For those who want to have a right - right of center gov't - We need a strong Likud to make sure that together we will form it.

THINK ABOUT THAT - VOTE LIKUD

Danny: Yisrael Beytenu joined Olmert’s government because Olmert publicly renounced his intention to make further territorial withdrawals and we prevented Labor and Shas from hijacking the budget. When Olmert went to Annapolis to renew the disastrous Roadmap negotiations, we quit the government on principle. Similarly, we will stand by our principles and object to any such moves in the future.

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Q2: Can a voter know what route a party will take AFTER the election (relative to the promises made during the campaign)?

Ariela: The first time a party departed completely from it's electoral promises was by Sharon. He was the one introducing the false concept "WHAT YOU SEE FROM HERE YOU DON'T SEE FROM THERE". This dangerous concept was at the birthplace of Kadima, and defines it from it's inception. Based on all parties history - they all more or less remained true to there platform,and I believe that, particularly because of the event of the past 5 years, all will be a lot more careful.
Gilad Arden publicly declared that this is an absolute commitment of LIKUD

Danny: After elections the results often govern how much any party can do. However, to judge if a party will act as the voter expects largely depends on the individual MKs. Yisrael Beytenu’s list was selected to best advance a specific platform. While our list is very diverse, we are of singular purpose and will make joint decisions. Our former ministers, Avigdor Lieberman, Uzi Landau and Itzik Aronovich have sacrificed ministerial positions for their principles.

Ariela: I have known Uzi Landau as a person of great integrity. No doubt about him to remain true to his principles. However, in the same party there is another M.P - Sofa Landver - she is of opposite views to those of Uzi Landau - he is right she is VERY left. How is that going to work?
Indeed, in Likud too we may have some variation -moving between right and right of center, but not 180 degrees opposing of right and left.
For a stronger and more solid position dealing with the most critical issues- VOTE LIKUD

Danny: Sofa Landver has particular issues for Olim that she wishes to advance, which fit into Yisrael Beytenu’s platform. She has signed on to Lieberman’s security plan wholeheartedly. Uzi Landau left Likud, as a man of integrity, because he could not predict the direction it would take.

Yisrael Beytenu presents a clear platform and has talented people to put its ideas into place. Likud has two opposing camps and no clear message. So what does a Likud vote mean?

Ariela: I know first hand that Uzi Landau DOES NOT agree with Lieberman's ideas vis a vis the Arab population - both of the "Meshulash" and of Jerusalem. You can't claim that you believe in equal rights for all citizens and at the same time advocate transfer of all of them - the loyal and the not loyal alike. Uzi Landau does not agree with this position of Lieberman, one he expressed in several occasions in the past. Neither does Sofa. Obviously - there are opposing and confusing views within the party across the spectrum - from left to right.
It is Likud today that speaks in one voice - facing the difficult security and economic issues ahead of us. People with knowledge integrity and experience like Bibi, Begin and Bugi - together with their great group - are clearly a strong team to steer our boat safely at this stormy water.

Be sure you place our future in the hands of people with clear minds and clean hands. VOTE LIKUD FOR A STRONG GOV'T..

Danny: Yisrael Beytenu has voted as bloc in the past and will continue to do so in the future. Uzi Landau stated that he joined the party because he found himself voting along with our members more often than with his own party in the past. Our platform is public and detailed and can be seen at http://www.geocities.com/hershtal/PLATFORM.doc

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Q3: What should Israel's relationship, as a Jewish country, be with the Israeli Arab citizens?

Ariela: I grow up on both the Jewish - biblical value - not to oppress the GER VE'TOSHAV (Ger lo tonu ve'lo tilchetznu...) as well of Jabotinsky's poem ..."and there they shall live in tranquility - the son of Arab the son of Nazareth and my own one"...
Obviously - we are talking about recognizing the INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS OF EVERY CITIZEN OF A RELIGIOUS OR ETHNIC MINORITY - PROVIDING THEY ARE COMMITTED AND LOYAL TO THE COUNTRY. If they are not - then Israel, as every other democratic country - has the right and obligation to defend itself, with every legal mean against those who are not loyal.
This had always been the position of my party -LIKUD

Danny: Israel must treat all its citizens as equals under the law. However, Israel must remain a Jewish State in name and in its institutions and symbols. An Arab who takes no issue with Israel being the Jewish State, and wishes to serve it in that capacity should be as welcomed as Ariella's husband was, as a loyal government minister in an Anglican country. However, we MUST legislate that without loyalty, no citizenship.

Ariela: Danny speaks about loyalty as a pre-condition to citizenship. This is clear and obvious. The problem is that he failed to address my concern with Lieberman's proposal to transfer ALL Israeli Arabs to the Palestinian state. -loyal and not loyal alike. As I said, I know clearly that even Mr. Uzi Landau opposes this approach.
I have 2 problems with it:

1. It assumes that a Palestinian state is inevitable. WE IN THE LIKUD DO NOT THINK SO.
2. It lumps together the loyal citizens - and we know that they are - with the not loyal ones. This is against our commitment in our Declaration of Independence - promising equal rights to all minorities who are willing to live in peace with us in a "Jewish and Democratic state".

Danny: A Palestinian state is NOT inevitable. Neither Uzi Landau, nor Avigdor Lieberman nor myself want to see one. However, Yisrael Beitenu has stated its minimum conditions for a Palestinian Autonomy to exist:

New leadership, unconnected to terror, recognition of a Jewish State, redrawing borders to annex settlements and the Jordan Valley to Israel and to disinclude Arab areas along the greenline.

These conditions show our negotiating red lines, while the Likud has presented no definite redlines. This makes Likud more susceptible to internal and external pressures.

We do not believe that a Palestinian state is necessary. However, we cannot accept one in which no Jews are allowed to live but Israel must accept a sizable HOSTILE minority (a loyal or indifferent minority could be accepted). We are setting a redline that we will not accept half of a state for the Jewish people.

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Q4: Why might a religious voter vote for your secular party rather than a religious party? i.e. How will your party relate to religious issues and provide the needs of the religious voter?

Danny: In the past, religious issues have been left to the religious parties and Shas has always won out. Yisrael Beytenu, with its religious and secular candidates has advanced bills to return our religious institutions to Religious Zionist hands. We have promoted the Tsohar Rabbis and their proposal for a legal partnership registry for those unable to marry Halakhically and we have backed Rabbi Druckman and have tried to diffuse the power a single, Hareidi controlled conversion Beit Din. We will continue to fund religious schools and use their model to change the public school system. If Yisrael Beytenu has the power to counteract Shas, we can promote a Rabbanut that Orthodox, traditional and non-religious Jews can be proud of.

Ariela: The history of Likud - based on it's founding parties - Herut and Liberal - is recorded in the history in and out Knesset debate over Israel 60 years, and before. It is encored in the fundamental belief of the link between our Religion -Land - People- which are bond together and inseparable. They are therefore,demanding of us all respect and the protection of our religion, moral values and principals. Therefore - religious -national -Zionist Jews always felt at home in our party - in the past as now.
I must admit - that the approach Yisrael Beiteinu is taking on the issue of " Who is a Jew" and conversion is problematic for a religious Jew.
Trust the clear record - stay with us and join us - vote Likud

Danny: In the past, the Likud tried to court the religious vote in order to win power. However, their record on religious issues has faltered. Looking to the future, Likud has said it will turn to Shas first in forming a coalition, meaning a continuation of the Hareidi social dominance. Only a very strong Yisrael Beytenu can ensure that the Religious Zionist Rabbis are granted more power. This will prevent a Shinui style backlash and allow the Rabbanut to take a more meaningful place in Israeli society.

Ariela:

1. Likud believes in the concept of HALACHIC conversion, and FULLY SUPPORTED BOTH RABBI DRUKMAN AND THE ZOHAR RABBI.
2. LIEBERMAN WANTED TO INTRODUCE A FORM OF CIVIL MARRIAGE - this is a mine field that we can not afford if we want, as we MUST remain united.
3. ALL GOVERNMENTS - INCLUDING OLMERT's - WITH LIEBERMAN AS A PART OF IT - gave in to Shas. This is the unfortunate reality of the need for coalition building

Danny: Yisrael Beytenu joined Olmert’s governement to prevent Shas and Labor from hijacking the budget. A strong Yisrael Beytenu will be able to battle Shas, while Likud has expressed no interest in doing so. What Yisrael Beytenu wants to introduce is a civil partnership agreement, approved by Rav Shlomo Riskin, that affords couples who can’t Halakhicly marry the same civil rights as a properly married couple. If Likud does not support this proposal it will be from pressure from Shas and not based on its own ideology.

Ariela: For some reason - Danny chose to ignore my point about CIVIL MARRIAGE THAT Yisrael Beiteinu SUPPORTS.
As it looks more and more clearly: A VERY STRONG Yisrael Beiteinu MEANS; ZIPPI LIVNI AS A PRIME MINISTER - A RETURN TO THE PRE-'67 BOUNDARIES,INCLUDING JERUSALEM.

For all those who understand the danger; there is no other way -
VOTE LIKUD - מחל


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Q5: Where do you see Arab/Israeli relations heading in the next 5 years (please relate to Israel's relationship with the PA, Syria and any other Arab country you wish to relate to)"?

Danny: Syria: With Yisrael Beytenu in the government the Golan will remain in our hands. With that tactical advantage, our peace with Syria will be maintained.

PA: With Yisrael Beytenu in the government, clear redlines for further autonomy will be clear. We will maintain heavy presence in Yosh and probably Aza, until terror is stamped out (which won't happen in just five years.)

Other Arab countries: If we properly confront Iran, other Arab countries will deepen security ties with Israel, even if only through back channels.

Iran (and within 5 years, Pakistan) will present greater challenges than the Arab countries.

VOTE "LAMED"

Ariela:

1. The events we experienced since Oslo had proven to us, at least, one point: The concept of LAND FOR PEACE FAILED. We lived through years of homicide bombers, increased terrorist attacks on civilians -both in the north in the south-including kidnapping of our soldiers from under the noses of UNIFIL AND UNRRA -culminating in the war against Hezbollah and Hamas.
2. Syria and Iran are still the countries that finance and arm these terrorist organizations.
3. Iran is getting closer to being nuclear.
4. Syria has a strong army with the largest arsenal of chemical weapons.
5. It is clear: every meter we withdraw from - became a base of aggression against us by the radical terrorist organization -and the weak leadership of the P.A - could not , or did not want to stop them.
   

THE INEVITABLE CONCLUSION IS THAT LAND FOR PEACE IS AN ILLUSION. THE ONLY WAY FOR a LONG AND LASTING PEACE IS A STRONG ISRAEL OFFERING PEACE FOR PEACE.
THIS IS AND WAS THE LIKUD POSITION -FOR A STRONG GOV'T WE MUST VOTE LIKUD

Danny: I could not agree with Ariela more. I especially like that she used the line “Peace for Peace”, which is a Yisrael Beytenu slogan, and the term “homicide bomber” , a phrase that I popularized in 2002. I will only add that Yisrael Beytenu has made it a goal to strengthen our ties with Europe, especially those elements which are similarly threatened by Iran and Pakistan’s Islamic Fundamentalism

Ariela: It's funny - but I heard the slogan PEACE FOR PEACE long before Yisrael Beyteinu became a party -FROM MENACHEM BEGIN! ...But who said what first is really not what's going to bring about this result - IT WILL NOT BE HELPED IF A WRONG PERSON IS GOING TO BE CALLED BY PERES TO FORM THE NEXT GOVERNMENT - AS WE GO TO VOTE -THINK ABOUT THAT.
VOTE LIKUD SO LIEBERMAN WILL BE A MINISTER IN A LIKUD GOVERNMENT, AND NOT IN LIVNI'S.
VOTE LIKUD

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Q6: Is it better for the governing party to have a lot of mandates in order to govern as they please, or to have a weaker governing party with the smaller parties holding the balance of power?

Ariela: The law of the land is that we are to have an election every 4 years. That is important in order to ALLOW THE ELECTED GOVERNMENT TO GOVERN, TO TAKE meaningful steps to improve the situation in the areas of IT'S responsibilities.

In the past few years - we had election every 2 years!!It can't contribute to effective governing,and is a waste of public funds, which we can't afford.
In que. 3 and 4 we dealt with THE problematic reality that a small party - holds the power to force it's possession on the majority (like Shas in religious and financial issues) AND can bring about a collapse of a coalition.
IF WE WANT TO HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT CAN GOVERN -PARTICULARLY IN THIS VERY DIFFICULT SECURITY AND ECONOMIC TIMES -WE MUST GIVE THE BIG PARTY ENOUGH MEMBERS TO BE ABLE TO GOVERN.
WE MUST VOTE LIKUD - IF WE DO NOT WANT TZIPI LIVNI TO FORM A COALITION WITH LABOUR, MERETZ AND 'SECURITY BLANKET' OF THE ARAB PARTIES.

WE MUST VOTE LIKUD TO GIVE NETANYAHU THE STRENGTH TO FORM A STABLE AND STRONG GOVERNMENT.

Danny: It IS better for a party to have more mandates to govern as they please, but also to govern against the will of it voters. This is the situation that caused the disengagement fiasco. Likud has repeatedly expressed interest in forming a coalition with Kadima and/or Labor. Only a vote for a large Yisrael Beytenu will force Netanyahu to turn to the right and give right-wing voter the right-wing government they deserve.
VOTE "LAMED"

Ariela: For a Likud to form a coalition that will not be vulnerable to any party's black mail it must have a SOLID majority.
Lieberman did not commit to a right wing coalition. HE DID, AND MIGHT ONCE AGAIN - IF TOO STRONG - GO EITHER WAY.
If you believe that NETANYAHU must be Israel's next P.M, that we can't afford another LIVNI gov' - If you want Lieberman to be in a Government with LIKUD - VOTE LIKUD

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Closing Statements

Danny: In this debate we focused a lot on history: the most reasonable predictor of the future. We spoke about how Likud governments in the recent past have disappointed right wing voter, disappointed religious Zionists and have been susceptible to foreign pressures. Yisrael Beytenu opposed the disengagement and the roadmap but has tried to influence the government as much as possible in other spheres. Yisrael Beytenu has stated the strongest anti-terror and anti-treason policies. We have a dedication to maintaining the Jewish and Zionist values of the country and intend to return the state religious institutions to Religious Zionist hands. Yisrael Beytenu is gaining in popularity because those who were disappointed with Bibi’s failures as Prime Minister are searching for new leader for the Nationalist camp and Yisrael Beytenu can now take on that role as a strong right-wing party with a sizeable number of seats, poised to end the disastrous land-for-peace ideas that have dominated the last 15 years.

One extra advantage in voting - LAMED for Yisrael Beytenu is that your vote may put me in Knesset. A recent Globes poll gave Yisrael Beytenu the 21 seats it needs to make me your representative. I will work with the Absorption Committee and the Interior Committee to remove many of the hurdles faced by Olim from the West and increase government co-operation with organizations such as Nefesh B’Nefesh and AMI. As a recent Oleh, I can give this issue unprecedented effort and attention to reduce bureaucracy and eliminate the need for Protexia and lay the groundwork for facilitating further Aliyah. Also, I intend to be open to your queries and publish an indepth “congressional” newsletter to bring a more accessible, accountable and effective government. Send me to Knesset and you will see that our community is truly represented for the befinit of new and longtime Israelis. VOTE "LAMED"

Ariela: As we could all see, throughout this debate - there are similarities,and some differences between the two parties. BUT ONLY ONE PARTY LEADER IS A CANDIDATE TO BECOME ISRAEL'S NEXT PRIME MINISTER AND THAT IS NETANYAHU. I observed a very dangerous trend in the past few weeks - people WANT BIBI as P.M - and say that they will vote for him as P.M. and...for some another party... This is wrong!

THE VOTE IS WITH ONE BALLOT ONLY! if you want to see Netanyahu as P.M. you must vote LIKUD!

ONLY if Likud as a party will have a CLEAR MAJORITY-THE PRESIDENT WILL CALL ON NETANYAHU TO FORM THE NEXT COALITION! If Kadima will have a close Number - or even one or two less PERES ( A MEMBER OF KADIMA )WILL CALL ON HER FIRST!

I wish to remind us:
Twice the right wing parties brought in left wing gov't - and the people of Israel paid a heavy price:
1. In 1992 the right run with splinter parties -and lost 40.000 votes to parties that did not pass the threshold. SHAMIR LOST - RABIN BECAME THE P.M. - AND WE ENDED UP WITH OSLO.

2. In 2006 - many of the right voters stayed at home - we lost thousands of voters -and ended up with KADIMA with all the corruption, political and diplomatic zig zag - the next gov't will need to do a great job on damage control

IF TOO MANY OF THE RIGHT AND RIGHT OF CENTER WILL SPLIT THERE VOTES -INEVITABLY, AND UNWILLINGLY - THE RESULT WILL BE - ZIPI AS A P.M -
AND LIEBERMAN, WHO DID NOT YET SAY WHO HE WILL RECOMMEND TO THE PRESIDENT AS A P.M - MIGHT TAKE YOUR VOTE AND JOIN KADIMA LED GOV'T - HE DID IT ONCE - HE MIGHT DO IT AGAIN. (I wonder what my dear friend Uzi Landau will do if that will, as it might-happen!)

TO SECURE A STRONG GOVN'T TO DEAL WITH ALL THE CHALLENGES AHEAD OF US -

VOTE LIKUD - מחל