I can accept the debate. Both sides of it. I think the position of tradition and what is halachically acceptable is legitimate, and I think the opposing position of it not being a halachic issue, of it being more inclusive, of women's roles changing, is also legitimate.
On some issues I might agree more with one side of the recurring debate than the other , while on other issues I will find myself agreeing more with the other side.
But I hate these fights. I hate seeing news items where Israeli police, under instructions from the PMO or Religious Affairs Ministry or whoever, prevented Jews (women in this case) from taking a Torah to the Kotel, or from using a Kotel Torah scroll. Or from reading from a Torah. Or from carrying a chanukah menora into the Kotel area. Or from lighting the menora. I hate seeing news items that the women smuggled a Torah in. Or were arrested for trying to smuggle a Torah in. Or the story that they were banned form bringing menorahs into the Kotel area. Or that despite the ban, they managed to smuggle a menorah into the Kotel area.
I just hate it. Whoever is right, and whoever is wrong.
These news stories make me think of the days when the British did not allow the Jews to blow shofar at the Kotel, so they smuggled a shofar in, and sometimes a shofar blower got arrested because of it. It makes me think of the times that Jews were not allowed to pray at the Kotel. Or when they were not allowed to sit. Or to have a mechitza. Or anywhere else in theworld, at any time in history, where the anti-semitic rulers did not allow the Jews to practice their faith and rituals.
Even if the women are wrong, and even if they should not be lighting the menora or reading the Torah or whatever else they try (and I do not know that to be true in every situation, but supposing it is), isn't there a better response? Do we really need to generate stories and news items of religious suppression, of control reminiscent of the times of the greatest anti-semitism in our history? Can't our leaders and the authorities tasked with dealing with these situations find more creative solutions than imitating the Greeks, the British, the Soviets and the Romans (and everyone else throughout history)?
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Rafi, I hate to say it, but you're playing right into their hands. Your response is exactly what they want.
ReplyDeleteNo, it is not religious suppression to deny an intruder to not follow the customs of the place. They are intruders - nothing less. They don't want to follow the place's historic customs and social norms and want to create their own. There is no religious suppression involved. Just the opposite - it is a religious forced takeover. And that has no place in any society.
intruder?
Deleteyaak - I disagree. let's leave the torah reading and tefillin aside for now, as those issues are more complex from a halachic perspective. Let's use the current example of smuggling in the menorahs after being banned form lighting - what makes them intruders in this situation? there is no complexity about this situation. What halachic issue is there with women lighting a menorah?
Deleteand assuming there is nothing wrong with it from a halchic perspective, as I am not aware of any such problem, then why are they "intruders" and what are they taking over?
Absolutely. If I let a Xtian into my house, I don't want that person setting up an Xmas tree, do I? If that person does so, that person is an intruder. This is no different.
DeletePrivate property = kotel?
DeleteObservant Jewish women = Christian?
Lighting Hanukkah candles = setting up a Christmas tree?
(BTW, i do not believe there is any religious significance to a Christmas tree)
I think you need to re-calibrate your senses my friend.
Anonymous 6:48,
DeleteThe Kotel has a rabbinic authority who is in charge of setting its social norms. In that way, it is like private property, yes. If you don't see the comparison to Xtianity here, then it is not my senses that need calibrating.
Rafi, there is halacha and there is halachic social norms. Whether or not it is against halacha is irrelevant. The rabbi of the place institutes the halachic social norms. Anyone who does not want to abide by them should be removed and never allowed back. They are intruders.
ReplyDeleteExcuse my french, but this is made up bullshit. you CANNOT MAKE THINGS UP. sorry. thats not how it works.
DeleteKeeping things the way they were is not considered making things up. The only people making things up here is WoW and their ilk.
Deleteanyone that thinks things stay the same and do not change is a complete and utter moron. mazel tov. you are one.
Deletedo you have a problem with chaisidim? or lubavitch? or sefardim? or wearing a black hat? or charging interest? or using an eruv on shabbos?
and anyone that has a problem with OTHER PEOPLE doing something religious and harmless to become closer to the ribono shel olam is a jerk
so, mazel tov. you are a jerk and a moron.
there is no need for name calling
Deleteyou'd prefer more polite name calling like intruders
DeleteAnonymous 7:01,
DeleteThis is your friendly neighborhood jerk and moron here (aka your worst nightmare).
You are totally misinterpreting my words. (No surprise.) Did I ever once say that I don't think that things should ever change in Judaism? I don't see where you get that from my words.
And re: resorting to name-calling, I urge you to see Bava Metzia 58b if you dare.
social norms are fickle. if not for Rosa Parks social norms would still include segregation on buses (and elsewhere). Social norms change with the times. Rabbi R doesnt want them to change, WoW does want them to change. That doesn't make them intruders.
ReplyDeleteA defiant protest like that of Rosa Parks is also incorrect. She too was an intruder. I happen to agree that she was right - but not in the way she did it. You want change? Go through the right channels. The ends don't justify the means. In the case of WoW, I don't agree with their ends or their means.
Deletethey really have no channels other than social protest. whether they are right or wrong, if they want to effect change, they are powerless in the Knesset - especially in this knesset controlled by the religious parties that have always stonewalled them, and even with the previous one which should have been relatively sympathetic to them they did not get very far.
DeleteSocial protest should be relegated to picket signs and marches. Would someone who wants to protest against the President of the United States be allowed to enter the White House and yell at him? Obviously not. Same here, intruding is not a valid form of social protest. It is intrusion.
Deletethey cant be intruding, as the Kotel is open to all. at most they are breaking the rules of acceptable behavior at the Kotel.
Deletesuch protest is never acceptable, until after the fact if it turned out to be successful and effect the change it was trying to.
but, again, we are way off topic. The post was not about the women being right or wrong or their form of protest being good or bad. the post was about finding better ways to solve the conflict
They are still intruding since the rabbi of the Kotel sets the rules despite it being open to all.
DeleteRe: finding better ways to solve the conflict, nothing proposed or built for WoW is acceptable for them. They want full rights in the place that they want them. You cannot deal with stubborn people except to treat them as intruders.
and to clarify and point out - I did not say they should be allowed to do what they want. I said our leaders should be able to find more creative solutions to these situations than generating headlines similar to those generated by comunist russia, the ancient greeks and the colonial brits.
ReplyDeleteAgree with everything Yaak said. He has the true Torah perspective. These women (and by now everyone should realize it) have no regard for Torah or religion. This is a feminist agenda to undo Torah Judaism in Israel and to further their cause of destroying religion, in general. Wake up; these are Jezebels and Vashtis.
ReplyDelete