stop being so naieve..we are all just a pawn in a larger national scheme for UTJ...it's pretty sad that this is what our "supposed" das torah is behind..hashem yirachem

There have been english ads for gimmel telling about how they have been able to add hundreds of classrooms for the chareidi school system, how they brought jobs to the area.
They discuss how they will help lower taxes and they will keep the parks clean.
Im not sure why those ads have not gotten to your mailbox.

they were in the mail boxes tonight in a newspaper form

To me, the following story sums it up quite nicely :-)

The price of electricity for domestic usage will drop by 5.25 percent at midnight Sunday to NIS 47.2 per kilowatt/hour.

The price of electricity for commercial use will drop even further, by 5.8%.

The drop in the price of electricity comes due to the drop in the price of oil and gasoline.

However, because of emergency plans by the Electricity Company to erect new power plants in 2009, the price will rise again by approximately 5% in January.

It is disgusting that Tov's candidates are being both publicly and privately harassed and bullied by UTJ.

UTJ's viciousness is a sign they are scared by Tov - and getting desperate.

Tov have exposed that UTJ & UTJ's attitude of selling a political party solely by showing pictures of UTJ candidates shaking hands with Torah scholars, is insulting to the voter's intelligence.

Tov are new, talented at PR, and may well be effective in local government (let's see).

And if Tov shake up UTJ to recognise that their consituency isn't entirely made up of automatons, then kol hakavod!!

Rav GOldstein said Thursdy night that this isn't an issue of elections.
it is a broader issue that has to do with the future carachter of the community. The concept of not relying on the opinions of Gedoley Yisrael when it comes to political issues is tantamount to separating the Torah chas veshalom into TOrah Shebuksav and Torah shebaal peh and making it two seperate Torahs.
With this in mind the campaign is more or less trying to put out a message that it is irrelevant who or how successful the Netzigim are, rather an issue of how much the Torah irself permeates our lives.
One who allows the entire Torah (both parts as one unit) to dictate his life, will be Mevatel his own opinions to those of the manhigey hador.
This then is the main issue. While people obviously have free will and choice (eccspecially in the case of a closed ballot) they must realize that they are ultimately making a decision on a much larger scale than Beit Shemesh elections- they are deciding how they want to lead their lives.
(To hear the speaches from the Thursday night Gathering go to http://www.upfree.net/3331289)

I am not arguiong whether one should or should not vote Gimmel. People can vote for whatever party they feel best connected to, for whatever reason.
I understanfd they are fighting with TOV because they are afraid of losing power visavis the Agudas Yisrael faction within Degel, visavis the overall system, whether they say so or not. I also understand that perhaps there is something to the fight against TOV that Degel feels there is something wrong with TOV and they have to fight against it.

I can understand that.

But what is wrong with also telling us why to vote Gimmel? What is wrong with telling us what Gimmel has accomplished and what they hope to accomplish? Why is that such a minor aspect of their campaigning? Even if it made it into one page out of hundreds that have been printed and distributed, and you reall had to look hard for it, that is not enough. That should be a main thrust. They did build classrooms, and I am sure they did other things they can be proud of as well . So tell us about it.

I will add that I am even willing to post such a notice as a post here.

Free advertising reaching hundreds of people a day. Granted not all live in Bet Shemesh. Not all live in Israel. But plenty do.

If someone will write up a post of Degel's accomplishments and goals and why we should vote for them, and sends it to me, I would be happy to post it.

you can ask Eli Cohen from nachal Luz he's spearheading the English department. i'm sure he'll be willing to comply.

If you want to turn to the public for whom "the gedolim say so" is just not quite enough of a reason,

They don't. If "Daas Torah" isn't enough for you to have your vote decided for you, then you aren't the sort of person they want to have voting for them. The vote from your rebellious soul would taint their party.

if what you say is true, they would not be fighting so hard against TOV. Even if they got TOV to back down and Gimmel got all those votes, you are saying they would not want them. So they should be telling TOV to back down, and at the same time telling all of TOV's supporters to vote for someone else...

I don't think so.

if you see the paper they put out tonight, you will see that they are getting their act together to show what they are accomplishing.
they've been slow to picking up the issues but they're catching up fast

Its not that gimmel doesnt want the votes of TOV voters. I think the issue is that there are a few people who started this party bc they feel like second class citizens. They hide behind some feel good issues like we cant get into schools (dont know how having a seat will change that), clean parks and lower taxes.

Seemed at first like they had some rabbinic support. They still cant produce ONE name thats behind them, that will write a letter for them. Rabbi Malinowitz was at the gimmel party. That speaks volumes. So was Rabbi Kirschenbaum.

The Rabbobim here have spoken "b'peh echad" that this is a HUGE issue, not just pertaining to the elections. This is an issue about understanding what the Torah is about. I dont see how TOV can A) claim to be chareidi and not have ONE chareidi rov speaking up for them B) claim to have rabbinic support, yet not be willing to show ONE name and C) Not have an answer to why the gedolim are wrong here.

B'Yachad????? The rabbonim have spoken b'yachad? (And with all the Beit Shemesh issues, this is what they choose to stand up and speak about???)

So the Gur chassidim voting for TOV are NOT charedim? The Chabad chassidim voting for TOV are NOT charedim? Their rabbonim aren't rabbonim?

The belief of a monopoly of daas torah where there is clearly a makloket with rabbonim on both sides of these issues is downright insulting and perhaps sheker.

I would suggest that the hyperbole is to energize their community - but when it reaches outside their 4 narrow walls it sure is a poor choice of position to attract others.

Gur is voting for gimmel. Their man heads the list.
Chabads rebbe has passes away close to 15 years ago. Which of their rabbonim have signed a letter in favor of TOV, since the daas torah of the gedolei yisroel has come out?

Moreover, if a letter is produced, its for their followers - chabad chassidim. If you are not a chabadsker, then chabad is not your daas torah.

The people who TOV hopes to attract are people that fit the litvishe mold, just dont want to follow thru all the way. If you want to be chareidi, you need to follow some sort of daas torah. The TOV candidates rabbonim also need to follow some sort of daas torah. WHO is it, and WHY is it a secret?

Can someone confirm the following story :

TOV reps went to visit Rav Goldstein to get a brocha. He asked them if they follow rabbonim, and they said of course. He asked if the rabbonim said to drop out of the race, will they, and they said of course. He said I am a rabbi and i say you should drop out of the race.

Needless to say they didnt listen. They said youre not our rabbi. Our rabbi is rabbi malinowitz. RMG said great, Were friends. Ill call him and if he says to drop out of the race, will you? Suddenly, they got scared and said hes not our only rabbi. We have others. When RMG asked them who the other rabbis are, they refused to disclose this info. They said he doesnt want anyone to know.

I request from everyone thinking of voting TOV to listen to Rav Goldsteins drasha - its the first drasha on this link - http://www.upfree.net/3331289 - Its is a tremendous drasha and I think it will help you decide what the real issues are in this election.

anonymous of 7:18am - I personally, as have many other people, asked Rav Malinowitz if he is against TOV running and he is not. He has not told anybody to not vote TOV. While he does not actively endorse them and is not "their rabbi", he also does not actively endorse any other party (gimmel included), and he dislikes them all equally.

As well, after he went to the kenes Thursday night, I personally asked him if that indicated he had changed his opinion about TOV and whther people so inclined can still vote TOV. He made clear to me, and stated unequivocally, that he is fine with TOV and his presence at the kennes in no way was an indication that he changed his mind. He has reasons why he went, but that does not change the fact that he has no problem with TOV.

Rafi,

You have a typo in your post.
Everytime you write "the gedolim" it should rather be "their gedolim"

RBS elections make the presidential elections look like a midnight informercial

שבוע טוב

LOZ - you mean Obama's infomercial?

It was actually pretty quiet and tame until a few days ago. Then it started to heat up, and people in the know tell me the next two days until the elections are going to get vicious...

Rafi-

Do you mind if I phrase your question a bit differently in the hope of getting an answer?

Forget what gimmel has done/will do as a reason to vote for them.

Rather, why is it the correct "Jewish"/"halakhic" position to vote gimmel? What is it about their platform that garners rabbinic support?

Do they keep mitzvot and everyone else only pretends? Why is gimmel THE vote for anyone hoping to be frum?

(and saying because the rabbis say so is a cop-out. why do the rabbis say so?)

Rafi,
1) Would you mind commenting (as far as you yourself personally heard) what Rav Malinowitz's feelings are towards TOV and the elections in general
2) As for your question, the Rabonnim feel that this issue is no different than a question about Kashrus or Taharas HaMishpacha. Most people don't ask Poskim for detailed answers and Halakhic sources to back up their Psakim in these areas (unless for the purpose of learning more Torah, not "second-guessing". Why should this be different.
3) I am personally inclined to vote for TOV, but if they do not consult with ANY Rabonnim, that bothers me. I accept the fact that there is a gamut of Daas Torah, but I feel that the issues which the Iriyah must deal with require the involvement of an Adam Gadol

anonymous - To start out - I am making clear that I am not Rav Malinowitz's spokesman. I spoke with him about it, and others did as well. he has voiced his opinion. The following is only how I understood it - any inaccuracies or mistakes are mine.

Rav Malinowitz has said that he will not recommend any specific candidate or party in these elections. people can make their own decisions for whom they wish to vote. He has met with TOV, he has met with CHEN, perhaps he has met with others. I know he is familiar with the various mayoral candidates as well. He seems to be equally satisfied, or perhaps I should say dissatisfied, with them all, that he is willing to not make a decisive statement and allow people to make their own decisions on this.

As far as I know, the people of TOV do ask rabbonim, but they are reluctant to say which rabbonim. The reason is precisely because of the recent events we have seen from Degel. there have been forms of thuggery and bullying in trying to get TOV to back down and supporters to back out. They do not want their rabbonim (and perhaps the rabbonim do not want) to be bullied, so they are not saying.

Rafi,
Thanks for your response
If when you say "bullying", you are referring to the conversation reported above between Rav Goldstein and TOV, that would not seem to me like bullying.
I think what you said reflects a sad state of affairs, either from the side of Gimmel that they have resorted to bullying Rabbis, or from the side of TOV that they cannot even with which Halakhic authorities they consult
By the way, what is/was their stance on the Ma'ar?

what is TOVs stance on the maar? I don't know. I think they support it, but I would have to ask them to be sure. I don't remember... Now that I think of it, I don't remember seeing anything about it come up...

it is really moot, since the project has been off the table, and no matter who wins I cannot see it being revisited, at least in its current format...

The Ma'ar may be moot, but it speaks volumes about one's Hashkafa what one would do if faced with a similar question. For instance, similar issues may arise regarding RBS Gimmel (no connection to "Gimmel", as of yet)

B"H

Meanwhile in J-M, "Kavod laTorah" posters were all over Bayit veGan, a few also in Mattersdorf, w/Rav Eliashiv's picture and letter implying that one should vote for Gimmel but not Porush, as he hasn't done everything that the Rabbis have instructed.

Another poster then went up with another picture of Rav Eliashiv and a full letter saying explicitly to vote for Porush.

Not sure who's behind it, but the phrase sounded similar. We think it's various Haredim pissed off at Porush, and don't care if Barkat gets in, just that Porush is hurt.

Also, what happened to the not so secret deal that Sha"S would support Porush if Gimmel would support the Sha"S candidate in BS?

Gimmel (UTJ) did not distribute any english newspaper. that was an Abutbol piece. UTJ distributed a piece last week and showing its priority issues and what it did. According to the piece, it brought businesses like Matrix to the area, helped build more classrooms (not just in chareidi schools), and UTJ activists were a driving force behind Hakshiva and helped it raise funds for the youth of our community. In the meantime, what has Tov done? Why don't they publish the Rabbis they claim stand behind them? Why don't they tell us who is funding them? From the literature out there, it seems that Tov is not competing with Gimmel, rather Tov is trying to steal votes from Chen. Because everyone knows Gimmel is based on hashkafa whereas Chen is based on practical solutions and real action in Bet Shemesh.

Perhaps that was a deal between Shas and Degel, but not Aguda? Aguda seems to be the ones with the fight against Porush...

TOV has not done anything. they did not exist until a few months ago. With TOV, it is a matter of what they want to accomplish and whether you give them the power and trust to do that. Next time we will be able to ask what did they accomplish.

Got it. Another theory about the posters I mentioned was that they came from Barkat, but I doubt it. My sources indicated it was a "Haredi" man behind them,...probably a grudge, or like you said, the Agudah.