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Nov 20, 2022
what the people want
The news is reporting that UTJ has demanded from Netanyahu as part of the coalition negotiations that a law will be passed that will allow gender-segregated events in Haredi areas (I dont know the exact wording). The justification is that there are many cultural events that Haredi women will not attend if they are mixed (ie the women will stay home from the concert, or whatever, while the men go to what will essentially be a mens only event).
Personally I think that is reasonable and decent. It might have to be worked out exactly when it can happen and when it can't - can the kupat cholim also be segregated? buses? or just concerts? If that is their cultural behavior and what they want, I think the State has to figure out how to provide the needs of each type of community according to their cultures.
The thing is, with everyone on that side of the coin now saying this is what tens of thousands of religious and Haredi women want, this is what tens of thousands of religious people want and we can't force our lifestyle on them, what about the other way - doesn't the fact that tens of thousands of people want, for example, public transportation on Shabbos (in their areas) also mean we should give it to them? Why does the State have to supply the needs of only some of the people and not the needs of all of the people? Each one would be supplying the needs/wants of many people against what many other people think is right. How can you justify one by saying that is what the people want while denying the other?
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Chillul Shabbos is a major breach to our religious sensitivities and we should try to fight the state's sanction of it. If the secular don't see it as we do isn't relevant.
ReplyDeleteWho's religious (or any) sensitivities are being breached by allowing segregated concerts. We're talking about allowing segregated concerts in Chareidi areas, why should anyone have a problem with that?
Because some people are actually offended by what THEY SEE as demeaning of women.
Deletenot talking about public transportation on Shabbos in Bnei Braq but in Tel Aviv where they want it, or in other areas where they want it. This is the thing, we religious control everyone else's lives but get upset when they do something to control ours.
DeleteAs a Constitution overrides regulations, the status quo agreements regarding Shabbat come prior to attitudes of a sector
ReplyDeleteGender segregation - which so happens used to be more common eg different entrances at North American public schools - possibly is a socio- cultural sentiment and might be accommodated more reasonably. Whether or not is it is demeaning might also be construed as projecting personal socio-cultural sentiments
If they really want it, there doesn't have to be a law allowing it. All women will go one way, all men the other. Like in shuls.
ReplyDeleteNot all shuls.
Delete"If that is their cultural behavior and what they want...". Who is "they" exactly, and how do you measure what "they" want? What are the odds that a personal and really confidential survey would show even close to 100% concurrence?
ReplyDeleteI guess that it's hard, especially for an American Jew like me to decide what makes Israel "the Jewish State", which it is, without understanding from a secular Israeli's POV what makes things "Jewish". Shabbos? Kosher? Tznius levels? Here it kinda goes how it goes. For example, by Siyum HaShas, it didn't even need to be addressed. People just understood implicitly no mixed seating. But in Israel, in a private venue, can it be mandated? Can someone sue a wedding hall as an example if they ask someone to move? Can each neighborhood have it's own social mores without it needing to be codified? Here it's more live and let live, but I don't worry about missing the last train or bus. I also feel ashamed when politicians who profess their Jewishness (for lack of a better term) do things on Shabbos. So maybe there needs to be lines about what/when/where halachah should be codified to strengthen the identity of the state. In my view, if the world sees us as not caring about Jewish values, why support the state as Jewish? I guess then it's a fine line where values and halacha intersect.
ReplyDeleteThe prohibition on separate events is only if they are funded by the state - so weddings et al are OK.
ReplyDeleteAs far as what makes this the Jewish State, most Israelis would say that it is a state populated and ruled mainly by Jews, not that there is necessarily something Jewish about the state itself.
And so what is "Jewish "about that?!
DeleteSatisfaction of pushing the envelope again that much further is a sort of identity?
Black Hebrews? Subbota?
Seventh-day Adventist? Janitors who speak some Yiddish ? Should these be less?
These were obviously the perennial debates of decades ago. Ben-Gurion,Rabin, and even Yossi Sarid, On occasions of import acknowledged so much
That is why I think the issue of Gerut is so important. Jews are a big tent, many with opposing ideas. This is not a new phenomenon, but for many people who have a misty eyed view as Judaism being united at least somewhat in prewar Europe are deluded. IMHO, if you are born a Jew you are one. That means you're in. It doesn't mean your ideas are good for Judaism or the State. Also, IMHO, by the vast number of Gedolim in past generations being so anti the state that they wouldn't get involved in it are seeing the fruits of their own intransigence. Now they want to dictate rules? Sure, I want some things to be codified into Israeli law, but they are to little to late. But I don't have a voice being an American, I can only Monday morning quarterback. And speaking of, you guys really need to make Sunday into an non work day. Touchdown!
DeleteWhat about many that were involved in different eras but in spite of strenuous efforts sidelined and pocket vetoed? It was with solid basis it appeared hopeless to some others ?
DeleteTo Anon @5:36 pm. Your comment about the segregation of men & women is absurd.
ReplyDeleteI am a woman and this rationalization in these last # of decades is so ridiculous, especially for a Jew where our Torah is above and beyond anything else. The Jewish woman is the most
appreciated, respected and admired for her spirituality, her wisdom and her self-sacrifice for her husband and children; she is equal to her husband, but their 'roles' are uniquely different, as G-D Created the man and woman to have two separate roles in life. This obsession with gender, race, etc. which has become the norm in today's secular world, is an Amaleikite
ideaology to bring chaos into the world. This is the main reason we see the world descending to its lowest level.