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Jul 10, 2006

Gay pride or Jewish pride?

In what can only be described as a stunning turn of events (and possibly be described as hilarious as well), Shas has voted in favor of the Gay Pride Parade.

Huh? You might ask..

That’s right. Today Yahadut HaTorah put forward a vote of no-confidence against the government coalition based on the upcoming Gay Pride Parade. The idea behind it was to either force Shas to vote against the government, thereby causing the government coalition to collapse, or to make fools of Shas in the eyes of its electorate when they vote in favor of the coalition, as they are required to do by their coalition agreement.

So, despite the fact that Rav Ovadia Yosef has already clearly spoken out against the Gay Pride Parade (in what might be the best statement so far in the whole discussion of the event, Rav Yosef has been quoted as saying that the appropriate venue for the parade is Sodom and should be moved from Jerusalem to Sodom), and despite the fact that the parade being in Jerusalem can be considered inflammatory and possibly dangerous (let’s not forget that Jews are not allowed to pray on Temple Mount because it might incite the Arabs to violence, so why should possible violence in this event be ignored?), and despite the objection to the overwhelming majority of Jerusalem’s residents, Shas has decided to vote in favor of the Gay Pride Parade.

Kol Hakavod, Shas. How will you stand before your electorate on the next Party Yom Hadin (next election day whenever that will happen) and persuade them to vote for you as a representative of Torah values?

39 comments:

  1. Thats truly insane... in Yerushalayim?!?!

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  2. its hard to believe that shas would vote for the parade, its unbelievable. i guess i can understand both sides, maybe they should take the parade elsewhere, but why sodom? according to the story of sodom they were famous for their wickedness toward one another, not their gay sex.

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  3. The husband and I will probably be protesting the parade. I couldn't care less about these peoples' homosexual preference. I care about tact and tzniut and consideration for other people. The fact that these organizers and participants are CHOOSING to have a gay pride parade, where they wear basically nothing (I know. I've been to the annual gay pride parade in New York City a few times. It was by accident. I was trying to get to Kmart, and there they were.), and disrespect the Holiest city in the world to the Jewish people. It's disgracefull and callous. If they're trying to prove a point, let them prove it somewhere else, but not in Jerusalem.

    On that rant, Shas is totally screwed!!
    -OC

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  4. Horrid but this just shows mashiach has to be around the corner.

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  5. There have been gay pride parades in jerusalem for the past 4 years. mashiach still hasn't appeared.

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  6. UTJ's point was not to stop the parade, they knew it wouldn't happen, it was just to embarress Shas, who they knew would not vote down the government because of it. UTJ would've done the same thing in Shas's place. They come across looking like such tzaddikim when the whole thing was political to begin with.

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  7. frum girl - yes, in yerushalayim. As Tzvee said there has been one in Yerushalayim the past 4 years, last year even made a ruckus as a Haredi fellow stabbed a gay parader.
    The difference with this years is that Jerusalem is the stage for not just a smal gay pride parade, but for this years world gay pride parade, meaning this is the worlds central parade. The publicity and participation will be that much larger.

    gaychoosid - I do not remember how it became known like that, however the act is called sodomizing as well, so there must be some connection..

    Olah - I agree with you. What people do in their bedroom is their own business. To defile the holy city against the publics wishes and flaunt it in our faces is inappropriate.

    social - I am not sure what mashiach has to do with it. Hopefully he is around the corner, but much worse than gay pride parades have happened and mashiach has not yet come, so I am not sure how it is connected..

    tzvee - true point

    shtender - I agree the whole thing is political and UTJ did it to shame Shas and put them on the spot like they did. I am not so sure they would have voted in favor if they were in the same position. UTJ have shown themselves as experts in finding ways to avoid voting. I think they just would not have voted at all...

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  8. Rafi,

    If you agree that the whole thing is political, may I humbly suggest that you change the post around to reflect that.

    The way it sounds from your post is that the Shas members are pro-Gay pride. Nothing can be further from the truth. They even made a deal to get the government to be against the parade in exchange for a "Yes" vote.

    Rafi, I love you man, but this post is at the very best - very misleading, and at the worst, Motzi Shem Ra.

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  9. yaak - true, but that is just politics as well. Fact is they voted yes. Despite the fact that they are clearly opposed to it and despite the fact that they have no gaurantee it will be cancelled or moved. It does not even make any sense - they vote yes on condition the government opposes it....

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  10. I know just making a point as with all the bad that is happening at least we could hope and pray that mashiach must be right here.

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  11. gay choosid and rafi - The sodomizing is very basic - It DOES come from sodom. I believe it's the rashi where The angels who go to Lots house in sodom are lodging. The crowd outside gathers and bangs on the doors demanding that Lot turn over the guests as they are wanting to "have their way" . It may not be rashi, it may be another m'forash, either way, the story is the men of sodom wanted to sodomize lots guests.

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  12. rafi and olah - you say it defies the publics wishes - apparently the public is ok with the parade. Part of the public may not be ok with it, but not enough. You guys are looking at it from a frum perspective where one is flaunting an aveira - like a parade for theives. BUT, in a social/democratic/political society, there is more at stake and Jerusalem, as holy as it is to you, is also a ciy for others. More historical than religious. So as frustrating as it may be to have a huge parade for something you find private and maybe even reprehensible, This is the price we pay for freedom. freedom for everyone to flaunt what they want. If you want a heterosexual parade - go make one and you'd probably get it. Right now, gay is in politically. It also deflects from the ongoing Israeli/palestinian saga and shows the world how forward Israel can be as opposed to the Arab states. So there are huge political ramifications as well.

    Just don't fall into the trap that you are THE public.

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  13. I was referring to a poll that Haaretz published last week (I will look for it later) that said the 73% (if I remember correctly) of the general public is against it taking place in Jerusalem...

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  14. Israel is a country that affords equal rights to all groups...which is sort of the point in a democracy.

    Sorrounded by theocracies Israel is in a unique position to feel the day to day impact of how people live without freedom. The point is, you can choose where to live. It is no wonder that people who live like they are in a theocracy (the ultra-orthodox) are vhemently opposed to the gay pride parade and wish to squelch this groups rights. But once you agree to squelch one grouyps rights you forgo all rights and freedoms.
    You may believe that homosexuality is a sin. To attempt to strip a group of their rights....well maybe you can make the gays wear rainbow stars on their sleeve and send the germans back their reperations.

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  15. polls are one of the best ways to transmit any lie or statistic you want. walk around meah shearim and take a poll, then publish it that 100% of the people polled want all movie theaters burned down. so, should we? obviously, there is something wrong with the poll.

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  16. shaya - I would not advocate burning down all movie theaters if such a poll said so, but I would refrain from building a movie theater in mea Shearim...

    Dan - you are right, supposedly we offer equal rights to all, except for the fact that the police often reject permits for people to do things of all sorts based on other considerations, such as public safety or sensitivies that might be offended. I gave one example in my post - they do not let us pray on Har Habayit (a basic right of freedom to worship honored almost everywhere in the world, except in the holiest place for a Jew) because it might upset the Arabs. The police and politicians make restrictions all the time for other considerations.
    Anyways, the point of the post was not whether or not to allow the parade to happen. It happens to be I am against it happening in Jerusalem and think it should be moved to Tel Aviv or somewhere else. But that is beside the point. My point was regarding the paradox of a religious party that opposes the parade yet voted in favor of it and some of the ramifications of that..

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  17. so let me get this straight...you're against the govt limiting your right to go on har habayit but your ok with them limiting the gays right to have a parade?

    perhaps you should support everybodys rights. I support you both.

    Of course, if you think the jews in jerusalem would behave the way the muslims would on har habayit I would concede that security might be a concern and perhaps the parade should be moved. I guess it depends what are your views on terrorism.

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  18. Dan and Rafi

    Since it is a Jewish state, I believe Rafi stated his point well - the Jews should be able to pray where they want (halachicly permitted, but thats another story) and yet we can prohibit gays from parading in a holy religious site

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  19. avromi - what world do you live in. And at what level of halacha do you stop? according to some, using a tea bag on shabbos with a kli shlishi is still assur midioraisa and chayiv skila - there is a link on rafi's blog to a lakewood blog where some people hold that snoods and lipstick are assur. should we ban those too. am I strtching - not really. we don't have Israel as a shomer shabbos halichic state. what are you talking about banning and allowing as if we did?

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  20. In a theocracy the term "jewish state" has a completely different meaning than a democracy.

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  21. shaya - i think you are stretching - just because theres a link and some guy in lakewood doesnt make it run of the mill and standard torah. being gay is clearly assur and israel should have no problems standing up for that and dont say that a parade is different, because it is the promotion of that behavior which the torah so clearly states is an abomination

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  22. avromi - Israel is not a halachic state. It is a socialist/democratic state. Even if it was a halachic state, my point is it can be carried away. who's halacha? sfardi - ashkenaz? my example of the tea bag stands - If I use a tea bag, who do we pasken like - If I am chayiv skilah then what?. yes, homosexuality is assur in the torah. so is stealing and cheating and chilul shabbos. yet, while we may not give them parades, we join them in political issues and sometimes have to support them. That's the price of freedom.

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  23. In my opinion:
    Israel is not a halachic state, nor a theocratic state (are those two one and the same?). We are a democratic state and a Jewish state ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Establishment_of_the_State_of_Israel ).

    and to quote from the Israeli ministry of Foreign Affairs ( http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/State/The%20State ), The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, signed on 14 May 1948 by members of the National Council representing the Jewish community in the country and the Zionist movement abroad, constitutes the nation's credo. Included therein are the historical imperatives of Israel's rebirth; the framework for a democratic Jewish state founded on liberty, justice and peace, as envisaged by the biblical prophets; and a call for peaceful relations with the neighboring Arab states for the benefit of the entire region. (note: my bold and my italics).

    Being that we are clearly a Jewish state and that was the itnention of the founders, that means we are not purely democratic - our democracy is based on jewish values, as the foreign ministry says,"a democratic Jewish state founded on liberty, justice and peace, as envisaged by the biblical prophets".

    Aside from the fact that I do not think the biblical prophets would have looked kindly upon a gay pride parade, it is, arguably, not Jewish values to hold such a parade.

    Why do I say arguably? because some will argue, and the supporters of the parade do, that it is Jeiwsh values to promote tolerance and acceptance of all types.

    That is a point that can be debated. I think that is a human value, rather than jewish value. I do nto rememeber ever hearing in my studies something specifically jewish about tolerance and acceptance. I know we find throughout jewish and biblical history much intolerance when things were not done according to Torah values (when the leaders were followers of Torah), and much intolerance when things were done not according to liberal values when leaders were so inclined. Open a Tanakh, practically every page describes assassinations, murder, war and most of the time it is because people were doing things other than what the leader (usually a king pr prohet)was promoting. maybe there is a Jewish value in it, maybe not. I do not know.

    Being that we live in such a Jewish state (and I do not refer just to those of us who physically live here, but include those who live in the Diaspora but are connected to Israel) and Jewish morals and values are seemingly at the forefront of our system, we do provide equal rights to all. Gays can get jobs wherever they apply, as can women, muslims, christians, religious jews, blacks, latinos and whatever race/ethnic group/gender/etc division you want to think of. Everybody has the freedom of religion, speech, and whatever other basic right you want to talk about. The pursuit of happiness is there to be had by all.

    Yes, I am upset that my right to pray is curtailed. But I understand the reason. I think the reason is no good, but I accept it (and try to get it changed by legal means). because we live in a democracy that is the way it is. Just because we live in a democracy does not mean if someone want to hold a parade of lets say nudists we ahve to let them. If a group of nudists wanted to hold a parade in West Rogers Park, would you not be upset at the idea. Does it not go against the basics of a family oriented neighborhood to have such a display goign through it? Just because it is a democracy, eveythign and anything goes? When the Nazis marched through Skokie, legally with permits, in the 70s. did the jewish community (along with others)not fight against it? When they wanted to march through other cities, did the courts not prevent it? Of course they did, despite the fact that it is a democracy. Becuase democracy does nto mean chaos. The government still promotes values and morals and runs the country and gives permits to arades based on those morals.

    The past 4 years there has beena gay parade in jerusalem. the protests have been there, but they were minimal because the parades were small scale. This years parade is a world event and therefore the platform is much bigger, so the protest is much bigger.

    Should it happen at all? Maybe not. I am not one to say it should be completely cancelled (even though it is against Jewish values and should not be held in Tel Aviv either), but to move it to a more secular and liberal city (such as Tel Aviv) would be minimally appropriate. jerusalem is not just the capital of Israel, it is the Holy City of the Jewish nation (aside from the fact that Muslims and Christians consider it the holy city as well and its leaders have even gotten together with Rabbis to work on cancelling it). The Holy City of Israel should definitely not be debased with such a parade.

    Regarding the comparison to Temple Mount and violence: Nobody is callign for violence against the participants of the parade, and nobody expects violence (except for maybe the police who are paid to expect violence). However, last years small scale parade did have some violence. there are crazy people out there who did not hink in the same peaceful terms as me and you think. Some people are so offended, they do resort to violence. One can easily say that the parades permits should be cancelled or moved to tel Aviv based on the consideration that it might incite violence and disturb public sensitivities. no, I do not want there to be violence. But that does nto mean there will not be. If the police use that excuse in other situations, it should equally be applied here as well.

    personal situations of keeping or not keeping halacha have no relevance in the debate. Gays can get jobs and be upstanding members of society like anybody else. Nobody has a right to discriminate against them. They want to break the halacha in their bedroom, what do I care? It is between them and God, just like if you use the tea bag in a kli shlishi it is between you and God. Sure, it bothers me that there are people who do nto follow Halacha, but I am aware that the situation is complex and the world we live in is complex and I accept it for the way it is. You want to break halacha, go ahead. it is your business. But do not flaunt your sexual preferences in front of our faces. It is inappropriate and against jewish values, which the State of Israel is meant to be based on.

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  24. Rafi - I agree. I think the same right that gives them the right to parade, is the same right for you to protest. In fact, here in chicago, where the Gay parade starts directly in front of our store, has become a source of contention, even among gays. Many are starting to feel like - how does this help us to be accepted as the same, when we go out of our way to look and behave different publicly. I happen to agree, I do not care for a hetero parade, nor do I see the need for a gay parade to honor gay lifestyle. (BTW a nude parade - OH YEAH!!!! - Of course that depends on the participants!).

    BUT, a solemn gay parade that the cause is for equal rights - which is halachically required (forget tolerance and acceptance)e.g. insurance, health care, employment...that parade should be allowed and maybe even supported. But not a parade simply honoring a lifestyle choice.

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  25. agreed. they deserve equal rights like anybody else and nobody should be able to take that away from them. They have rights like anybody else. Who they sleep with is their own business. But they should not flaunt their lifestyle in our faces and not in Jerusalem..

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  26. Rafi,

    to answer your question; yes. A halachik state is a theocratic state. That is exactly what a theocracy is, when the rules of the country are based on the direct religious texts and not on a parlimentary or otherwise democratic convention.

    As to the rights of people. I am completely 100% all for the nazis marching in skokie and any other assembly. I also think it is perfectly fine to assemble and peacebly protest those parades with which one disagrees.

    But the west rogers pk analogy des not hold as no parade goes down side/residential streets...that is a zoning issue. If you would like a parade on the designated main thorghofare which rings rogers pk, kol hakavod.

    There is no way around it; when a gov't makes rules of morality and virtue you are inherently limiting people's freedoms. It is the difference between "tolerating" anouther's lifestyle or "respecting" anouther's lifestyle.

    "the framework for a democratic Jewish state founded on liberty, justice and peace, as envisaged by the biblical prophets"
    As for the above statement:

    political rhetoric is simply rhetoric. Prophecy is not found in Israel's constitution. However, one can analyze the above statement to mean that liberty, justice and peace are the jewish values which make a jewish state irrespective of the minutia of (ortho-halachick) laws which are disregarded and disagreed with by the vast majority of jews.
    Similarly, America is a judeo-christian country because the values are peace, liberty and justice...not the 10 commandements as the theocratic right would wish.

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  27. Again- you people embarass me for ebing frum myself. I can see how having the Gay pride parade through J'lem could be offensive to some, but it's no more offensive to most of these people than driving on Shabos- everything pisses of the charedim. Listen, if you can't have a gay parade in the capital of a country, then you are really denying them equal rights on a very basic level. Gays are a minority and evey minorities have rights. I'm sure the Israeli day parade in NYC offends alot of people like people who have lost loved ones in Battle at the hands of the Israelis, etc, but we are still alowed to march are we not. the Supreme Court allowed the KKK to march in Skokie which is a predominately Jewish neighborhood. I don't like prizus as much as the next guy, but we should all have pride in the fact that Israel is the one place in the middle east where you could dress up that way without being killed in the street. We pride ourselves on not being like the Arabs, let's prove it. Israel is a great pluralistic society and we should not hate gays in our midsts. I'm sure there are many charedim who are also gay inside and fight their taiva day and and day out and there others that just give in, gay or straight. This is evident in any of the Monticelo strip clubs- we are not immune. The Charedim are a kulah away from being terrorits, just waiting for Rav Ovadia to give the go ahead. They throw rocks at people driving on shabos, what's next. The palestinians used to throw rocks too, now they don't do that anymore. Shas is corrupt and is dragging Israel down with its numbers. In 20 years, they will control and they won't consider anyone from YU Jewish- we need to take our religion back from the Charedim!!!

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  28. anonymous - while the issues you raise are valid concerns, those points have nothing to do with the gay issue, at least what I think about the gay issue.

    Gays deserve and have all rights afforded to anybody else. Nobody is denying them that and nobody has the right to deny them that. What they do in bed is between them, their lover and God. I do not want to know about it. They are no better or worse than anybody who breaks any of the other laws of the Torah (black, hat, no hat, black kippa, no kippa or kippa sruga, or any other way you want to break it down). I am also nto trying to tell them how to live their lives.

    But they should not hold the gay parade, in my opinion, in Jerusalem. It is provocative. It defiles the holiness of the city (holding it anywhere in israel defiles the land, but Jerusalem much more so). And as I explained in one of my comments, while we are a democracy, we are meant to be a state and democracy based on jewish values (true, it is debatable what those values are, but this is my opinion), not a democracy like another America where anything goes. Clearly, the way I see it, having a gay parade goes against that.

    Gays have rights like anybody else. But there things that are not appropriate and should not be allowed. Not everything goes.

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  29. Rafi
    Your argument is full of contradictions. You say "Gays deserve and have all rights afforded to anybody else." You obviously don't believe that. The right to conduct non-injurious acts is a natural law right- so you have not granted gays any rights by allowing them to do what they will behind clsoed doors. The next step in personal liberties are the rights afforded to disfavored minorities in a pluralistic democracy. This accounts for America's "anything goes" policy as you put it. But, Israel is another such democracy and even disfavored minorities must enjoy equal protection which includes equal rights of association, which is really what this is about. The moment you take that away from gays by allowing the religious right to decide which minorities merit the right to free association, you undermine (further)Israel's democratic nature. It's important to protect these freedoms. Look at what happened in Amona- although not a constitutional issue, religious Jews were treated brutally by the much more secular police forces. What is to stop the Kneset from undermining the rights of the religious, a disfavored minority, in a secular country. The argument I would make, should you be aware if this reality, is if religious Jews wanted a religious fundamentalist state, they should have created one rather than allowing the secular Jews of Europe and subsequent mandatory Palestine form it for them. Furthermor, the holiness of Eretz Yisroel is not a depleting supply, OK. It is fungible- this will not harm Kdushas Haaretz, I assure you. That's not even a halachic principal so far as I am aware. I agree that a gay parade which is more a celebration of sexuality than gender orintation and solidarity is in poor taste. However, so long as there is no enforceable dress code in Jerusalem, the parade should be allowed to go on. What I am saying, is that you really don't want the country to take away rights of its citizens- nothing good ever comes from such a slipery slope. Also, whenever you find yourslef on the same side of a social issue as Charedim, one of whom has gone so far as to kill gays (a gate crime), you should reconsider your stance. As much as you might not like to admit it, you live in Medinat Yisrael, not Eretz Yisroel- that shipped sailed after the second Zionist Conference. What can I say- stay home that day.

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  30. I respectfully disagree. Israel finds reasons all the time to stop events from happening. They can provide a variety of reasons to not allow it to happen, considering it is provocative, without offending anybody's rights. Behind closed doors they can do whatever they want, injurious or not, I don't care. I am not sure how banning the parade stops them from sleeping with their preferred mate...

    Let me ask you - when the Americans allowed the Nazis to march in Skokie, were the Jews happy? Did they not counter protest? Was there not violence? What right di they have to go against that march, it is a democracy there? How could the Jews (and other people) deny them their basic rights? There are times where total freedom is chaos and the government does and should provide certain barriers. We do not always agree with those barriers, and therefore we will vote in or out a government based on their actions or stated goals.

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  31. Reread what you wrote- I couldn't understand what you meant. The point is, you can vote whichever way you want, but if you do so for an unconstitutional law, the courts will overturn it- it's called checks and balances. In Skokie, there were protests I believe but no violence. In the end, I don't think the KKK marched at all, they just won in the supreme court and that was their point. Your definition of "offensive" is troubling. The KKK practices what can be called hate speech, which is patently offensive whereas Gays marching merely "offends" your modest sensibilities- it's not the same type of "offensive." Lots of things offend people, that doesn't give society a right to vote them out of public life. Doing so under the guise of 'Democracy' doesn't make it any more acceptable, just like "voting" for Hamas was not a true democratic act because the party represents tyrany and hatered, anti-democratic ideals. A vote for Hamas was a vote against democracy, however ironic that is. Similarly, a vote to supress the views of your neighbor simply because it offends you is a non-democratic non-pluralistic act and should not be tolerated. It's offensive to have religious zionists rally against the current government, right? But they enjoy that right and for the most part it goes unchecked, which is a remarkable achievement for a society. So don't rob the Jewish state of its uniqueness and its deomcratic nature- you should really reverse your opinion if only to protect your right to voice offensive views in the future.

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  32. during the disengagement (for a recent example) many public protests were stopped and many people whop spoke against it were discriminated against. When convenient the government acts in such a fashion with no problem. It is not a pure democracy here like in the US.

    In the Skokie case they marched elsewhere. There was a debate in the courts. The courts first denied them the right to protest. Upon appeal it was overturned due to being unconcstitutional.
    Note: in israel there is no constitution.
    They were going to be alolowed ot march with no uniforms. The compromise was a change of location.

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  33. True- I know that was a US constitutional issue, and I am not familiar with the Israeli equivalent of constitutional law, but I assume it must exists because the high court must interpret SOMEthing. The point is really pluralism, and I made that clear earlier. The Skokie case was a rough mashal. They should be able to march. But, as applied in Skokie, maybe you should be arguing with regulating their behavior- which still rasies issues. Perhaps argue that sexual acts not be portrayed, obscenity not used, nudity prohibited. The absence of these arguments leads me and others to conclude that your problem with the parade is not its form but its substance. That being ANY gay parade of any sort. You only have a right not to be offended by obscenity, nudity, etc- low value speech. But the gay parade in its purest form is a political activity and should not be suppressed. Your argument that the Israeli courts or police do in fact discriminate against others doesn't make your point any stronger, it weakens it. This is obviously something that israel has to work on, among many other things.

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  34. Israel has no constitution. The Supreme Court is not defining a constituion but what it considers basic rights.
    I will write a separate comment with some background to my argument.
    Yes, the argument is weak, that once Israel is suppresing forms of expression, so this should be suppressed as well. It is not a good argument, but see my next comment.

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  35. I will now give some background to my position.

    I am a very liberal person. I always have voted democrat in US elections (that would be twice Clinton, once Gore and once Kerry) because I believe in liberalism. Once rights of any minority are supressed, rights of Jews will eventually be suppressed as well, along with the fact that our history shows what happens when one group suppresses anothers rights.
    I am very liberal. i believe in free markets of everything. That would be politics, speech, expression, religion, you name it - it should be free for anyone to express himself how he/she wants.

    For example, I have a guy at work who complains because they used to have a shiur in the morning he would go to. They would allow you to clock in and then go to the shiur. They recently changed it and said if you go to the shiur you have to clock in after, not before. He stopped going to the shiur because he thinks it is not fair that the whole hour should suddenly be on his account. I argued with him and told him that I feel he has no right to claim that they should sponsor his learning. He wants to learn, it should be on his own time. They want to sponsor, very nice. But they do not have to. As soon as they decide not to, you have no claim. That is free market. They owe you nothing. Another example, I am a firm believer in everybody;s equal rights - when people complain about cars driving on the orad on shabbos, I always argue that they pay taxes and have as much right to the road as them, whether they live in the neighborhood or not. Just like you paid "b'meitav kaspecha" for your house, they paid for theirs as well and you own the road no more than them. etc.

    That being said, my position in this case contradicts my personal liberalism. Let me explain a bit.I have changed my opinion a bit in the past few years. I am more sensitive to the jewish aspect of things, rather than pure liberalism. The issue of the gay parade is one where according to jewish values it is not appropriate, let alone in Jerusalem. yes, according to my liberal beliefs I agree it should be held, but according to my Jewish beliefs I feel it is wrong.

    Therefore my arguments are not against liberal values and I will not argue the law whether it is legal or not or within their rights or not. I am arguing that it is provocative. It is against Jewish values. While in a democracy it should be supported, in a Jewish state it goes against what I believe should be done in public.
    You say to argue against how they would behave - nudity, suggestive dress, etc.. but I say they will not do that in any acceptable fashion. Look at any gay parade rally in the recent past - or at least the pictures of the parades. You will see what I mean.

    Therefore my argument is for Jewish values. Yet I will find legal ways to rationalize banning it. Such as they ban other protests and forms of freedom of religion or whatever. That gives a place for them to find reasons to ban this as well.

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  38. It's ridiculous to say that a celebration of being gay (even if that includes celebrating how God made us - naked) goes against "family values" or other similar rubbish. There are plenty of gay couples who do much better jobs of bringing up children (to be respectful etc.) than many straight parents I know of.

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  39. dude- it is a not a celebration of being gay. It is an attempt at making headlines and creating a provocation. I recently read an article about the delay and rescheduling of the parade. The author (I can look for it later, it was on YNet) interviewed one of the organizers. He asked why they still need the parade considering they already had all the events and it was a successful gay pride week with no incidents. So why the parade. They insisted it must take place, etc. The interviewer then asked if they are pushing human rights why not go through an Arab neighborhood that they will be passing in near proximity?
    The answer given was they do not want to creat a provocation in the Arab community. So the interviewer asked why is it ok to not create a provocation in the arab neighborhood but you insist on creating one in the Jewish neighborhoods? The interviewee had no response and fumbled a bit until he responded abotu human rights allowing them the right to parade.

    The issue is not one of rights,. They are looking to provoke and create headlines.

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