For a party that was highly ambivalent during the disengagement from Gaza (aside from Meier Porush), they have really taken on the disengagement as their mantra now...
While being brought in to support the Sharon government coalition, they were allowed to vote freely and voted against the disengagement. Despite that, they continued to prop up the Sharon government, helping to give him the strength to continue with his plan.
Now, UTJ in Bet Shemesh has adopted the anti-disengagement sentiment to try to sway haredi residents not to disengage from voting Gimmel - the Haredi party, and vote for TOV. haredim do not disengage from haredi parties! (I guess this really can only follow the previous flyers that claim TOV has no relation to being Haredi)
Gimmel didn't "remain" in the government. After Shinui quit they and Labor were brought in order that Sharon's plan be implemented
ReplyDeletecorrected. thanks
ReplyDeleteIsn't "ועשית ככל אשר יורוך" the opposite of "חושבים טוב"?
ReplyDeleteAbutbul's name doesn't appear on today's fliers, maybe he told Gimmel to take his name off.
ReplyDeleteAbutbul went ballistic about the previous flyer and screamed at the Degel Hatorah people.
ReplyDeleteI guess they listened.
could be. actually the original agreement between ger and degel was that there would be no gimmel signs adding the abutbol name. The reason is because gimmel does not support abutbol. degel does, but ger supports lerner.
ReplyDeleteDegel has anyway been using the gimmel name on the signs with abutbol.
Maybe abutbol protested the type of advertising, and maybe ger protested the joint promotion...
Hey Rafi, you've missed out on the flyer that was delivered simultaneously with this one - the one that says "We're everybody's representatives!"
ReplyDeleteSo on the one hand, Gimmel is exclusively and in-your-face Charedi and will brook no dissent on the fact that to be a "real" Charedi you have accept that you have no freedom of choice; you are halachically and morally obliged to vote Gimmel.
On the other hand, they are trying to make out as if we're all part of one big happy fuzzy family, and they'll represent everyone!
Will the real Gimmel please stand up?
Derech agav, do the Gimmelniks think that Rav Moshe Shternbuch and the Eida Charedis are not Charedi, because they won't be voting Gimmel in the coming elections?
They even used orange for the words "do not disengage"!
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if that is clever or really offensive (implying that not voting for their party is as bad as kicking out 9000+ people from their homes).
sorry, shaul. I missed that one. feel free to scan it and email it to me. I will include it...
ReplyDeleteMaybe I missed something here... exactly which one of the gedolim has provided a Daas Torah instruction for to whom to vote in the Bet Shemesh election?
ReplyDeleteThey Degel Rabonim will come out with a standard announcement to vote for Gimmel (without overt mentioning Tov). That says a lot, to anyone who understands the Degel politics.
ReplyDeleteRafi,
ReplyDeleteThis morning, there was a new Gimmel/Abutbul flyer.
so I guess Gur did not protest the usage of gimmel/abutbol
ReplyDeleteThe Degel people seem to be very "menutak" from the tzibur.
ReplyDeletebut according to them, it does not matter, because the gedolim say to vote gimmel anyway
ReplyDeleteShaul said,
ReplyDelete"Hey Rafi, you've missed out on the flyer that was delivered simultaneously with this one - the one that says "We're everybody's representatives!"
So on the one hand, Gimmel is exclusively and in-your-face Charedi and will brook no dissent on the fact that to be a "real" Charedi you have accept that you have no freedom of choice; you are halachically and morally obliged to vote Gimmel.
On the other hand, they are trying to make out as if we're all part of one big happy fuzzy family, and they'll represent everyone!"
As a yeshivish anglo "balabaas" I take strong issue with Gimmel.
I voted gimmel in previous elections but I won't in this one!
1) My kids go to Magen Avos and Rappaport...what does Gimmel feel about that?
2) I support Lema'an Achai. All of the RBSA Gimmel candidates on the flyer are big Kupa people. While I have nothing with that I am certain that none of those on the list do anything for Lema'an Achai.
3) Gimmel is a candidate for everyone? Is that why they were against the Ma'ar which would have made RBSA a better place to live?
A party which is so single minded and lacks respect for others a little diffferent from them will not get my vote this time!
Why do the gedolim support gimmel? From the comments here it doesn't seem as if that's deserved.
ReplyDeletethe gedolim don't just support gimmel. They are gimmel. It is their party. they established it, and officially they make all the decisions.
ReplyDeleteOf course their decisions are based on what the askanim tell them about what is happening and what they need to do so....
Anon of 1:03-
ReplyDeleteI agree with your sentiments. I leanred in yeshiva and davnen in the shul of one of the big "Gimmel" rabbonim here.
AND I support Lema'an Achai (as well as the efforts of the Kupa but my loyalties are with LA)!
My Rav won't support Lema'an Achai (and sort of hints against it) and he won't tell me why. I have come to the conclusion that for him it is basically a Charedi/non Charedi thing which to me is quite silly.
I know Lema'an Achai, their director (a Rav with Charedi semicha) and the fact that they help hundreds of local residents whether Charedi or not.
To me the fact that Rabbonim, other organizations and closed minded people refuse to support them shows that even in the year 2008 in a mixed community like RBSA "tipshus" can still reign supreme.
It is the same leaders of Gimmel who support this discrimination and are making this a less and less desireable place to live.
Let's hope that Shalom Lerner, TOV, B"yachad and Chen can get in there and spread some tolerance and acceptance.
As an outsider (dati leumi woman living in Ranaana) I find these comments really fascinating. It sounds like the awakening of the American yeshivish community, that for years has been cowed by the Israeli charedi intolerent divisive sensibility. It is very gratifying. I hope this awakening in the RBS community spreads to Jerusalem and you can make a real difference in the charedi community
ReplyDeleteanon-2-46
ReplyDeleteSo if someone doesn't publicly endorse your favorite tzedaka organization, they are close-minded? I think that LA also has a number of Rabonim who support them. I don't recall most of them publicly endorsing the Kupa. I guess that also makes them close-minded
commenter abbi said...
ReplyDeleteAs an As an outsider (dati leumi woman living in Ranaana) I find these comments really fascinating. It sounds like the awakening of the American yeshivish community, that for years has been cowed by the Israeli charedi intolerent divisive sensibility. It is very gratifying. I hope this awakening in the RBS community spreads to Jerusalem and you can make a real difference in the charedi community
Ah, so insulting local Rabonim and calling them close-minded is a positive awakening. So putting down the local YH party which has wide rabbinic support is not "intolerent divisive sensibility". Just who here is close-minded?
Elisha,
ReplyDeleteMy Rav was asked by Lema'an Achai to sign a letter with other Rabbonim from the community.
He refused. Flatly with no reason.
My Rav was asked by Lema'an Achai to sign a letter with other Rabbonim from the community.
ReplyDeleteHe refused. Flatly with no reason.
Not no reason. He just didn't reveal it to you.
And again, I don't see most of the Rabbonim who support LA similarly supporting the Kupa, yet somehow they don't get to be called close-minded.
anon - if you look over the years at the various letters of the kupa, you will see [at least] most of the rabbonim associated more with LA have signed letters of support for the Kupa. I do not know which rabbonim you are speaking of who have not supported the Kupa, but perhaps they were not asked to.
ReplyDeleteYour counter-claim that these rabbonim do not support kupa is only valid if they were asked for their support and they refused it.
You might be aware of such a situation, but I personally am not.
Rafi,
ReplyDeleteExcellent reply to Elisha (not to anon as you addressed it).
There is no question that the rabbonim who refuse to support LA (not that they weren't asked) have a personal agenda w/o any connection to halacha or dayas HaTorah.
I am curious, however, about how many members of these rabbonim's shuls benefit from the tzedaka and chesed of Lema'an Achai in spite of their rav's stance.