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Aug 18, 2010
forcing parents to use WebChaver
The big topic of discussion right now is the yeshiva in new York that forces parents to open an account with WebChaver, an internet buddy monitoring system.
The school, however, should have no say at this level of what the parents do. They should not be allowed to tell parents you have to have this or that installed for us to accept your child. I feel this is inappropriate.
Adults should be treated like adults and should be trusted that they do what is necessary to be "internet safe", and how they do it is their own business. Kids however are kids, and school rules could and should apply to them. And if a parent says the kids has no access, or follows whatever the rule is, or whatever they say, that should be trusted, and they should not be put through these hoops.
It has come down to when a parent registers their kid to school, it is as if the parents are treated as if they themselves are now in kindergarten and are not trusted for anything any longer.
Again, it is nobody's business, and if they can force this, I dont see why they cant force you to go hire a mashgiach to drop in to your house, even as a yotzei vnichnas, and give him access to everything you do. Check your books and newspaper subscriptions. Check which hechshers you
keep stored in the pantry. If you use white tablecloths for shabbos or colored.
Maybe you should give out your bank account and credit card info to someone so they can review your financial dealings regularly to see if you buy anything that might not be appropriate, or to see if all your business dealings are honest.
More or less, it works like this. The buddy assigned to you will get a report of the websites you (or whoever uses your account) surf to. This creates a sense of accountability - there is a mashgiach watching you, and you will not go to inappropriate sites. And if your kid does without your knowledge, your chaver will let you know that someone in your house is accessing site x, y and z.
Here is what I think about it.
The WebChaver, and other monitoring and filtering systems might be great solutions for keeping your Internet access safe for yourself and for kids. You very well might want to consider implementing this solution, in addition to other other solutions like a web filter, or even on its own, in your house.
That being said, I think a school or yeshiva should be allowed to set rules for what type of internet access the potential student will or will not have. For example, the school can say kids cannot have access to the internet unsupervised. When the kids use internet they need webchaver plus double filters. Or whatever set of rules they want.
The school, however, should have no say at this level of what the parents do. They should not be allowed to tell parents you have to have this or that installed for us to accept your child. I feel this is inappropriate.
Adults should be treated like adults and should be trusted that they do what is necessary to be "internet safe", and how they do it is their own business. Kids however are kids, and school rules could and should apply to them. And if a parent says the kids has no access, or follows whatever the rule is, or whatever they say, that should be trusted, and they should not be put through these hoops.
It has come down to when a parent registers their kid to school, it is as if the parents are treated as if they themselves are now in kindergarten and are not trusted for anything any longer.
I understand the need for it, but then why not hire someone to sit in your house and keep an eye on you 24 hours a day because who knows what you might be doing in your house eating bassar b'chalav, shichvas zera lvatala, listening to inappropriate music, reading inappropriate magazines and newspapers, etc.
People are adults and should be treated as such. I have no problem with them being told "we dont accept kids if the kid has internet access that is not monitored" or something to that effect, and the parents should be trusted, just like they are trusted in every other aspect of yiddishkeit, to say they dont give their kids access, or they supervise or they filter or whatever. The parents should be trusted and there should not be the ability to force parents to install a mashgiach in the house. We should trust the parents who give their word.
And it is not a matter of someone having something to hide. It is simply nobody else's business what I or you do, what websites I access, and what else I do. I dont need them knowing if I read CNN and Haaretz or if I regularly visit the "Jews who Love Obama" website or if all I do is
my banking at Bank Hapoalim, or if I access a bank account in Aruba. It is nobody's business.
People are adults and should be treated as such. I have no problem with them being told "we dont accept kids if the kid has internet access that is not monitored" or something to that effect, and the parents should be trusted, just like they are trusted in every other aspect of yiddishkeit, to say they dont give their kids access, or they supervise or they filter or whatever. The parents should be trusted and there should not be the ability to force parents to install a mashgiach in the house. We should trust the parents who give their word.
And it is not a matter of someone having something to hide. It is simply nobody else's business what I or you do, what websites I access, and what else I do. I dont need them knowing if I read CNN and Haaretz or if I regularly visit the "Jews who Love Obama" website or if all I do is
my banking at Bank Hapoalim, or if I access a bank account in Aruba. It is nobody's business.
All this is besides for the security risk such software might pose for people who access their office networks from home.
An ironic situation would be this. WebChaver serves as a proxy, with the server sitting in the US. People have complained, in Israel, that they cannot watch video clips on HULU or other video hosting sites, because of copyright issues and broadcasting to Israel legal issues. Signing up for WebChaver would probably solve that problem and give you full access to ll the videos on HULU. I have not tried or tested this, but if I understand at all how WebChaver works, it seems to me like this will be a solution to the HULU problem, as long as you don't mind that your chaver knows you use HULU.
Someone who wants to sign up for it, no problem. Someone who doesnt want to, I totally understand. I have no problem with the school recommending it, but to demand it is wrong, I think.
Again, it is nobody's business, and if they can force this, I dont see why they cant force you to go hire a mashgiach to drop in to your house, even as a yotzei vnichnas, and give him access to everything you do. Check your books and newspaper subscriptions. Check which hechshers you
keep stored in the pantry. If you use white tablecloths for shabbos or colored.
Maybe you should give out your bank account and credit card info to someone so they can review your financial dealings regularly to see if you buy anything that might not be appropriate, or to see if all your business dealings are honest.
People in general are trusted, and they are responsible for their own lives. They should be for this as well, despite the risks of the Internet. Stop treating the adults of the community like they are children that you have to supervise. Give guidelines, no problem. Tell what to do? No.
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Rafi, I actually disagree with your point, although I despise with idiotic right wing schools as well.
ReplyDeleteIf you choose to attend a private school in the US, you follow its rules. The rules may say you have to wear a clown suit on the 15th of every month. Most of us who have kids in private schools are comfortable with some of the school rules, uncomfortable with one or two, and we live with them all because that is what constitutes private education.
Don't like it? You have some choices: 1) pull your kids out, which most people, apparently, are loath to do for fear of permanently damaging the psyches of their tender children; 2) get a group of parents to vote out the current board or administration (unlikely to be successful).
What you can't have is private education on your own terms, unless you start your own school.
If more people wouldn't be afraid to WALK (taking their dollars and children with them), these schools wouldn't be able to get away with these ridiculous things.
tesyaa - a couple of points in response to your comment:
ReplyDelete1. our private schools are not really all that private. they are really much more communal than private. The funds do not come from the guy who opened it, though perhaps he invested some of his own money in it as well, but they come from fundraising, parents donations and all that.
2. lets say they have the right to set whatever policy they want. you have to stand on your head all day on Tuesday of you want your kid in this school, and on Wednesdays you can only read backwards. Let's say they have that right. Do they have the right to change the rules whenever they want, ssentially holding you hostage to listen to their dictates knowing you have no choice? The yeshiva in question did this right before the school year started. Anybody already enrolled who doesnt agree with the rule has no way of finding a new school in time for the new school year. Thats taking for granted that they can set whatever rule they want, no matter how abusive it is.
3. who says a private service has the right to be abusive and domineering to their client base? As a consumer of this "private service" I am saying that I disagree with this rule. I can't say they are being abusive by making such rules and try to get them to improve their service?
4. WebChaver is really just an example of what is happening. It alone is not really the issue. The issue is that leaders in the community, people in authority, that includes rabbonim, askanim, principals, etc. are being abusive and treating their communities with great disrespect and distrust.
For the most part, people who choose to send to this school over that one, attend this synagogue over that one, learn in this yeshiva over that one,. will generally have a like-minded set of values. Maybe not exactly the same, but for the most part they will be pretty similar.
I am sure nobody sending their kid to this yeshiva believes the kids should have unmonitored and unfiltered and unlimited internet access. Perhaps in a "one-horse-town" the school might be made up of all sorts of elements, but then they probably wouldnt have such a rule and would likely be happy with every Jewish kid they could convince to register for the school. It is a problem in cities with bustling Jewish activity and multiple systems that each try to out-frum the next guy.
The school is treating the parents as though they cannot be trusted. Our communities have been treating the parents for years as if only a certain askan can be trusted with ensuring the continuity of our yiddishkeit, and our parents are just a bunch of people who dont know anything and cannot be trusted. I despise the feeling that i am being talked down to all the time. I need ishurim to blow my nose because I cant be trusted to do it properly according to the proper hashkafa set by askan a, b or c. It is making me sick.
WebChaver is not the issue, it is just an example of a trend of how our communities have developed in recent years.
I agree with what you say about changing the rules late in the game, or worse yet, in the middle of the school year. I've seen that happen and yes, you are a hostage. But you can start shopping around for next year. What I see, though, is that people don't want to disrupt their kids even when the school has moved so much to the right that it's not recognizable anymore. As I said on the DB comments, it's more abusive to leave your kids in such a school than it is to subject them to the "trauma" of leaving.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of speaking out against new policies (chumras), people are afraid to. They don't want to be branded a troublemaker and they don't want to appear "not frum enough". People are afraid that their kids will be retaliated against, and in some cases unfortunately they're right.
This is just another example (of many!) of how schools (and ad hoc committees) have developed a tyranny of new roles that were never intended for them. It is the PARENTS' obligation to educate their children. It is the PARENTS' responsibility to choose the sort of society they want their children in. It is the PARENTS' responsibility to oversee and guide their child's moral development.
ReplyDeleteSchools are intended to be agents of the parents. They are meant to carry out what the parents cannot do on their own. They are agents; NOT primary stakeholders.
Somehow, schools as institutions and rabbanim as teachers and community figures have gotten a conflated notion of their own significance, importance, and authority. They have arrogated authority that isn't theirs to wield. They use intimidation, coercion, and worse where they either should have no voice at all; or should be educating, encouraging, and convincing.
Parents have abandoned their responsibility to others. Often, the parents feel inferior because they perceive they are not as learned as the 4th grade teacher. Rubbish! The parents' moral authority and responsibility remains! Like anything else in life, the parents can think and act on their own volition; and they can ask and consult when they need to.
Where did schools and their staff ever get the idea that they act in place of God? Their role is in loco parentis, not in loco dei. The teachers need to realize what a privilege they have. It is the parents who are doing them a favor by entrusting their children to them; not the other way around.
I have a technical question. How does your chaver know if a website is not appropriate? And if he has to surf to it to check it, do you have to report him for accessing an inappropriate website?
ReplyDeleteSomehow this sounds like a thing that, like many other things, is simply being used to wield the "I'm frummer than thou" stick, but doesn't really improve frumkeit one bit.
I dont think it is his job to check up on you like that, but I guess he would be curious and might actually do so!
ReplyDeleteThe fact that someone else sees where you go is sup[posed to scare you out of going to questionable websites. Perhaps he is also meant to report it to some yeshiva authority, but I dont think so.
It is for sure just to be frummer than everyone else.
The concept of webchaver might be very good for those who choose to use it as a way of protecting themselves and their kids. I am not saying webchaver is bad. it is good.
The forcing of parents to use it is what is bad and is just to look frum.
How is this different from saying that we wont accept kids who have a TV in the House, or Secular Newspapers, or whatever.
ReplyDeleteThese types of statements have been common for many years.
Isn't a requirement for filtered Internet the same as a requirement not to have a TV?
could be it is no different. i am sure people werent happy when that first started..
ReplyDeletethe tv fight was largely won.
The difference with the internet, I think, is that the internet is not the same as watching tv. it can be dangerous, but it is also useful, people conduct business on it, trade stocks, do banking, pay bills, connect to offices, control their music, purchases, etc. all those things ensure that the internet is not going away so fast and will not be won by them like tv, which was purely for watching mostly mindless entertainment, was.
Big Brother is watching
ReplyDeleteRafi, no-one cares if you access CNN or your bank account, but they do care if you enter adult-rated websites. Anyone who is worried by such a check system may well have something to hide
ReplyDeleteIsn't submission to the Midrassa the Jewish way? Uh, nope, that's the Islamic way dude.
ReplyDeletethey may not care where I bank or what I look at, but maybe I care. Maybe I dont want them to know my private information and business dealings. Maybe I dont want them to know about a medical condition someone in my family might have that I research online (lo aleinu), or anything else private I do.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I have no problem with webchaver as a program. If someone, myself included, wants to use it for protecting their house form internet dangers, it seems to be a great solution and more power to em. I dont like the way people are forcing others to do things.
Rafi, what would your webchaver think of "Ten ways to have fun in Tel Aviv"? Is this what's making you nervous? LOL
ReplyDeleteWhy isn't anyone suspicious of the people coming up with all the suspicions?
ReplyDeleteanonymous - I posted it on Life in Israel where it was subsequently seen by thousands (or if they didnt all watch it, they all at least knew I posted it). so my webchaver would just be one more. no big deal. the problem would be the sites I dont want him to see.. :-)
ReplyDeleteShira - who says nobody does. But who is going to do anythign about it... thats another story
>If you choose to attend a private school in the US, you follow its rules.
ReplyDeleteThat's true, but there are several problems with this rule nonetheless.
For starters, as many have already pointed out, it was established too late. It's a last minute addition from August (or maybe July) that in reality leaves parents with no choice but to comply. It is changing the rules in middle of the game. I was unaware that good private schools do this.
Secondly, it is a bad precedent, just as requiring clown suits once a month is a bad precedent. The fact is that yeshivos of this type did NOT legislate to parents how they themselves should behave previously. This yeshiva and its type do NOT require parents not to own a television, for example. Thus, in one fell swoop a so-called moderate style yeshiva becomes much less moderate and now tells parents what to do.
A third problem is that nowhere is it indicated that the hanhalah and the rabbeim are requiring themselves to sign up with WebChaver.
A fourth problem is that even though it's only $5 a month, it is an additional bill that the yeshiva has no qualms about just slapping on the parents. Just another manifestation of how Orthodox Judaism costs money. It would have been a nice gesture to for the school to substract $5 a month from the tuition they already pay and take care of it with that.
Rafi G., Mark, S., etc.
ReplyDeleteJust to clear up some misunderstandings:
The school is not mandating that the parents send the reports to an outsider, they merely suggest it. They actually have no way of knowing where the reports are sent to, and certainly have no access to them.
They are not even mandating that parents use WebChaver. If a parent states on the form that they use another service - that is also fine for them.
WebChaver is not a proxy, it is software that logs internet activity and transmits the url log to servers periodically.
The sites are scored for content on the weekly reports, so that you can know what type of site it is without actually going there. We also provide on our site additional tools to determine the nature of a site without visiting it as well. Check it out.
I am not sure why this is different than the old policy of schools forbidding internet access in the home entirely (as in Lakewood). This is actually a more understanding policy, saying that we understand you need it, just ensure its being used responsibly please.
As far as the price, we are trying to see how we can lower it even more (we are non-profit, by the way). We have a sponsorship program for anyone who feels they cannot afford the program. I would doubt that the Yeshiva has the budget to sponsor this on their own.
Anyway, we just provide the service , for those interested in protecting themselves and their family. We are not involved with the policy making of this or any school.
Webchaver - thanks for writing.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, let me stress again that I was in no way being critical of webchaver. Webchaver can be a very good solution for those who want to use it for protecting their homes and families from the dangers of the internet.
My issue is the way the schools and askanim have been recently treating parents, as if they are a bunch of children and need to be told what to do with threats as to what will happen if they dont follow the increasingly rigid rules being set all the time.
Why is it not different than other crazy rules that were set in place in the past? Who said this is any worse or better? So it is the same? In Lakewood they set crazy rules before and other yeshivas are following suit and starting to set their own crazy rules. I disagreed with those and I disagree with this.
I have no problem with webchaver as a program or as a possible partial solution to the dangers of the internet.
Rafi G.
ReplyDeleteI certainly understand your point. The counter-argument will obviously be, that this issue has become terribly rampant and many (if not most) of the parents have not done anything as of yet. The schools feel that they cannot be proper Mechanchim without sharing the job with the parents. If the kids at home receive an "education" from the internet, everything they will learn in school will be useless.
We understand both sides of the argument, and as I said - we don't make the policies. We simply provide suggestions and tools to help those who wish to help themselves.
PS. We don't usually post on blogs. Your's is an exception, since your blog seem to be very level-headed and not just looking to be cynical. We appreciate that.