I recently went to downtown Jeruselem. I parked my car for free near one of the light rail stops, then took the train into the town. It was great. If the place was vat free, I think you would see a whole economic eco system develop in that area. Not to mention that most of the shoppers there are tourists anyways, and get the refunds at the airport.

It may only be anecdotal evidence, but a number of secular people I've spoken with will not go into jerusalem unless they have to, wedding or funeral etc...

And this includes me.

People don't want to have to deal with or worry about the charedi segment and even more importantly, don't want to spend money in a community that is hostile.

Imagine how much money would be spent if things like the gay pride parade were not only allowed, but celebrated.

Or imagine the money off israelis and tourists if people could get married without the religious coercion of the orthodox controlled rabbanut?

The malls don't help either. But the fact is, there is a flawed business model when you disgrace a majority demographic of your customer base.

downtown Jerusalem is not a haredi area. the issue here under discussion is not the shopping areas of Geula. Jaffa, King George, Ben Yehuda, Hillel, etc. Downtown Jerusalem is a non-denominational business area. What do secular wedding and gay parades have to do with whether people will buy in the shops of downtown Jerusalem?

"It may only be anecdotal evidence, but a number of secular people I've spoken with will not go into jerusalem unless they have to, wedding or funeral etc...

And this includes me.

People don't want to have to deal with or worry about the charedi segment and even more importantly, don't want to spend money in a community that is hostile."

This is just silly, the last 2 times I went to Jerusalem I didn't see more than 3 charedi people, let alone a "community" of them.

Your view here is pure bigotry.

However, due to traffic I certainly understand the lack of desire to go to Jerusalem. I feel that way about the entire Mirkaz.

Don't worry. The prices will go up in any case.

People would see saving 16% off the top to be a big reason to go back.

I hate to get all "mathy", but if VAT is cancelled, it lowers prices by about 13.8%, not 16%.

This is exactly the kind of analysis which many chareidim can't do since they weren't taught the core curriculum.

and thats why I wrote "16% off the top".
this is not a reduced price. This is the original price without the added 16%

its not bigotry anon, choosing not to support a community whose philosophy and ideology I disagree with is not bigotry.

Rafi, while there are mixed areas and downtown shopping is one of them, the charedi community gets vast support from the municipal coffers. So supporting jerusalem is financially supporting the bastion of the charedi world.

The wedding and parades were two examples of events charediim have stopped which would put money into JM specifically. And ideologically, stopping them are among the reasons why I choose to limit my financial support where I can.

1) Rafi: Yes, it is done elsewhere -- downtown Lakewood is (or was) as UEZ (Urban Enterprise Zone), where sales tax is 3.5% instead of the usual 7%, and this tax is reinvested into the development of the UEZ.

2) I don't understand something (and I did pass math with excellent marks). In places like North America where prices are written without tax, then not having to pay tax benefits the customer. Here, though, they include the tax in the price, so if there is no VAT, it just means that the stores will keep the tax. Potentially they could lower their prices correspondingly by 16% (or 13.8% -- מלרע or מלגו) but would they really because it's worth it for them or would they keep the money (or most of it) and use it to compensate for their losses (which doesn't appear to be the intent of the עירייה, or they could have just given a grant)?

3) Yair G: IIRC I read once in the Jerusalem Post that chareidim tested were better at math than the general population, without any further education.

Ahaon - I dont know why stores dont lower their prices in an attempt to bring in more business. And who knows - Maybe they do.

Add the 16% discount you are suggesting they give to the 3-5% they pay the credit card fee per transaction (I assume the overwhelming majority of purchases are via credit card), and they are giving serious discounts. And then half the time the customer haggles and expects an additional discount...

"its not bigotry anon, choosing not to support a community whose philosophy and ideology I disagree with is not bigotry."

Fine.. but thinking that only Charedim live in Jeruslem, or that charedim benefit at all from downtown Jeruslem is pure stupidity. And if you think all Jeruselmites are the same, that is bigotry.

anon, I did not say any of that.

Charediim live in many places and yes Jerusalem has mixed and other communities.

However, The charedi community's home is in Jerusalem and the haredi communities in Jerusalem do receive monies and other support from the government of Jerusalem.

Which is also why the secular communities have been leaving Jerusalem in significant numbers over the years.

And the gay parade is a good example. The charediim said it should be in tel-aviv and the government caved.

But they want tel avivian money.

I am nto sure what you are talking about. jerusalem has held a gay pride parade every year for the last few years.
the fact that Tel Aviv has also had one doesnt take away from jerusalem's.

And the issue with the business downtown is not necessarily to attract people from tel Aviv (or other places). Jerusalemites are choosing to shop in malls instead of downtown and they want that business back as much as possible. I am sure tourism generated business is also a concern.

"Which is also why the secular communities have been leaving Jerusalem in significant numbers over the years."

Is that why Charedim only make up 30% of the city's population? And if you include the general metro area of Jerusalem it's only 20%

Your ignorance is impressive, even for someone on the internet.

Rafi G: I didn't say they do or don't. I just said that since they never "charged" VAT anyways, but rather "paid it for the consumer," then now that the עירייה says they don't have to pay, they are basically just increasing their revenue by 16%. This is similar to giving a large personal gift to all the businesses out of the goodness of their hearts, to help compensate for their profits, as opposed to the solution they apparently wanted, which is to draw consumers to the area.

It is true that the retailers can take this 16% and use it to offer 13.8% discount, which would then achieve the עירייה's original goal of drawing consumers to the area, but I wonder what would motivate them to do that instead of just pocketing the 16% -- is it truly worth it?

Anon,

insulting doesn't change the fact that I am correct and that seculars have been leaving JM in droves.

Charediim make up 30% of JM (I heard a bit more but we'll use your number) but who is replacing the seculars? Dati and other communities who while not charedi, certainly support the charedi system. The whole dati and relig zionist movements have shifted far to the right over the last number of years.

So if you tally charedi plus right wing dati you get well over 50%/

But even if it was only 30%. JM is the symbolic home of the charedi world in Israel and there is enough of Israel to love that I don't need to spend my money in a municipality that is pro-charedi and anti-secular.

Rafi- the parade in JM has often years been cancelled outright or changed to a tiny march on the outskirts. Its more of a hide the pride parade. And the argument the charediim and right wing dati make is that the gays and supporters should stay out of holy JM and keep the mnuvel in tel aviv.

So that's what I and others are doing.

The way, based on your logic, you should really just be leaving Israel. How exactly is the "government of Jerusalem" so divorced from "the government of TA". Do you really think the taxes you pay from the salary you make in TA never finds its way into the pockets of charedim in Bnei Brak or Jerusalem or Ashdod? You're really deluding yourself if you think this.

Did you know the higher prices on non Mehadrin food and non Mehadrin buses subsidizes the lower prices for charedim? I hope you're not buying food or taking public transport, since then you're indirectly subsidizing the charedi lifestyle. Withholding your money from Jerusalem will not make charedim go away.

Aside from the fact that your logic completely ignores the sizable secular community, particularly surrounding the two university campuses, and Hadassah Ein karem. Take a stroll through Ramat Beit Hakerem and French Hill and you will realize how silly you sound.

Abbi,

like I said before, it's not a boycott, it's not that I and others refuse to go to JM. But Jm stands as a symbol and while their are still secular pockets there is a reason why secular communities have left in droves.

And its about a feeling. And there are enough great places in Israel that I don't go to JM unless I have to. I also don't go to Bnei Brak unless I have to.

And if that's silly than so be it. I and numerous other silly Israelis simply stay out of JM unless we have good reason to go. You and others can call us silly or you can be considerate of how we feel and adapt.

If we make a large enough demographic of spending money than the system will change, if not than not.

But who are you to call my feelings silly? You may not agree, but I am sure much of how you live your life could be called silly by others.