Nov 10, 2013
Shay Stern checks out claims of fraud in Bet Shemesh (video)
Shay Stern went down to Bet Shemesh to check out the claims of fraud in the recent elections.. he also discusses the local homosexual community with someone who is openly gay, as well as with the mayor. The report is pretty funny, and I commend the mayor for playing along (at least I think, or hope, he did) though he seems to be living in denial claiming homosexuals do not exist in Bet Shemesh.. and I am not sure what he means when he says that the Ministry of Health and/or the police should deal with them..
Update Note:
In a radio interview, Abutbol clarified that he had been mistaken. He thought the question was referring to pedophiles, and that's why he said the police should deal with them. Abutbol also said that he has recently become aware that there are homosexuals and lesbians living in Bet Shemesh, he says he would assist them in any way that any other municipality does, and he would not oppose a Pride Parade.
http://player.glz.co.il/Player.aspx?FixedPoster=true&FixedPosterName=GLZAOD.jpg&ClipID=131111-12&Type=aod&Width=300&Height=200 - the discussion starts at about 27 minutes in, with the interview beginning with a homosexual man and a representative of the Gay and Lesbian organization, and at about 37 minutes in Moshe Abutbol comes on.
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Update Note:
In a radio interview, Abutbol clarified that he had been mistaken. He thought the question was referring to pedophiles, and that's why he said the police should deal with them. Abutbol also said that he has recently become aware that there are homosexuals and lesbians living in Bet Shemesh, he says he would assist them in any way that any other municipality does, and he would not oppose a Pride Parade.
http://player.glz.co.il/Player.aspx?FixedPoster=true&FixedPosterName=GLZAOD.jpg&ClipID=131111-12&Type=aod&Width=300&Height=200 - the discussion starts at about 27 minutes in, with the interview beginning with a homosexual man and a representative of the Gay and Lesbian organization, and at about 37 minutes in Moshe Abutbol comes on.
Donate to the Schneider Hospital so I can run the Schneider benefit marathon..
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I'm trying to figure out what would prompt a mayor to say such things about gays in public, much less directly to the media. Is it total cluelessness about what's appropriate, or a feeling of untouchability that he can just say whatever he wants?
ReplyDeletewell he wasn't elected because of his high inteligence
DeleteI believe he was just saying what he believes to be true. Not that he thought he could get away with something controversial, or inappropriate. I think he really thinks exactly what he said and does not even realize that there is something to oppose in such a belief.
ReplyDeleteAround the world there are still plenty of people who believe in exactly what he said (though not sure about relevance of police), though the "enlightened" among us reject such opinions as outdated and no longer true or possible.
Rafi, what do u mean the enlightened ones among us? Do u believe its ok to be gay(meaning act according to your feelings/emotions/urges) according to jewish law?
ReplyDeletea. regardless of whether it is right or wrong, I was talking about the belief of how such epople are dealt with - do they need medical treatment? that is an outdated belief, even though some still believe it. Nowadays the common belief is that that is the way some people are, and it is not an illness to be treated.
Deleteb. the Torah says homosexual relations are prohibited. What a person does in the privacy of his or her own bedroom is not my business. I never asked or assumed that some heterosexual people have relations in ways that are mentioned in Shulchan Aruch as prohibited for various reasons, and I don't ask people I think or know are homosexual about their preferences. I have fine relations with people who are not religious, and I have had fine relations with people who are homosexuals. Their relationship with God is their business, not mine.
C. Just like we don't live in a society with batei din authorized and empowered to punish people who drive on shabbos, people who eat treif, people who steal, etc, we also don't have the ability to punish homosexuals. And just because their inclination is to do something against the torah that might earn them a punishment in an ancient (and eventually future) society, doesn't give me or you the right to take away their civil liberties in our society today, let alone to treat them improperly.
DeleteD. Even in times when beis din did have the power to sanction such people, it was only after a specific process of warning and sitting on judgement with eyewitnesses. Do you have the right to judge such people in a wholesale fashion, without beis din, without witnesses, without proper warning, without the process of halachic judgment? I think not
a)-The common belief might be such but that doesnt mean its correct. Science changes its mind all the time. Hashem never gives a person a challenge that they cant overcome. They might not overcome it but that is there fault, not hashem.
ReplyDeleteb)There needs to a moral message to the world that it is wrong. We dont judge the sinner, just the sin. But the world needs to know it is wrong.
Do we not go out and try to mkarev non-religious jews? Are all the Baal tseuva yeshivas empty or doing the wrong thing? We need to be a light until the nations. We need to m'karev the homosexuals and help them change their ways.
c-We cant punish them as you said however who says we should give people doing the wrong thing equal rights? Do we let incestous marriage go on? Do we recognize the marriage of a mother and son? Can they claim govt funds like a married couple? No, so why should homosexuals or any other deviant marriage or relationship?
d-We arent talking about punishing now, we are talking about recognizing right and wrong and not condoning bad behavior.
I am not sure what any of this has to do with the statement that was made. nobody was asking anyone to condone anything. He denied their existence. According to the person interviewed he definitely knows they exist in Bet Shemesh, so he lied, but even if the interviewee was lying rather than Abutbol, it is silly of anyone to think in a city population of about 100,000 people there definitely are not any homosexuals... its just silly. Nobody is askimg him to condone anyones behavior.
ReplyDeletehis statement about calling the misrad habriut is just ignorance. I agree, science and psychology changes. I didnt criticize him for that belief, just said it is outdated. I know plenty of people still think it. I dont know what he meant by let the police deal with them. Did they commit a crime, just because he doesnt like them?
no mayor is creating laws to promote or limit civil liberties of homosexuals, so this entire discussion has been off-topic and irrelevant to the post.
Nice post! I accept he was trying to say what he accepts to be accurate. Not that he supposed he could escape with something disputable, or improper. I suppose he truly thinks precisely what he said and does not even understand that there is something to contradict in such a conviction.
ReplyDeletethe claims pages