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Feb 6, 2014
NEWSNIGHT: Oxfam's Ben Phillips and SodaStream CEO talk West Bank settlements and Scarlett Johansson (video)
Bam! They really rip into Oxfam and put him in his place..
I am not really sure what the boycott supporters and promoters want from Israel. What would make them happy? Israel should just pack up and leave? There are ongoing peace negotiations. they regularly pressure Israel to offer more and more, and Israel does. Israel has offered, on more than one occassion, almost everything the Palestinians have demanded, yet they have still refused to come to an agreement. At what point do the boycotters say that Israel is doing its part and let's let the process play out - and maybe even pressure the Palestinians to compromise a bit and accept an agreement?
Another thought, This guy from Oxfam is not so wrong. Even though he did not articulate it well, what he is really doing is looking at the forest instead of the trees. He doesn't care if 500 Palestinians lose their place of employment, because in his mind getting rid of the factory will bring the Palestinian Authority to rule, will give the Palestinians their own country, and overall it will be "good", even if for these specific 500 people, or 5000 if you include their families who have food on the table and clothes on their backs, or many more thousands if you count all the Palestinians who work for Israeli factories and companies throughout Judea and Samaria, it will be bad. I don't begrudge him that opinion, but he should really say it straight out - that he does not care for the individual Palestinians, but only for the greater good.
Another thought, I have found it interesting to see so many people post in support of SodaStream, defending them as promoters of peace and coexistence, and we need more initiatives like SodaStream that gives fair employment and wages and benefits to Palestinians, so Israelis and Palestinians can work side by side, it is this type of relationship that will found and allow the coexistence of Two States, etc... It is all true. The funny part of it though is how this indicates how much the consensus of the discussion has changed. Right-Wingers who would never talk about the possibility of a Palestinian State have been pointing to the SodaStream controversy and talking about it as the solution for the Palestinians..
I am not really sure what the boycott supporters and promoters want from Israel. What would make them happy? Israel should just pack up and leave? There are ongoing peace negotiations. they regularly pressure Israel to offer more and more, and Israel does. Israel has offered, on more than one occassion, almost everything the Palestinians have demanded, yet they have still refused to come to an agreement. At what point do the boycotters say that Israel is doing its part and let's let the process play out - and maybe even pressure the Palestinians to compromise a bit and accept an agreement?
Another thought, This guy from Oxfam is not so wrong. Even though he did not articulate it well, what he is really doing is looking at the forest instead of the trees. He doesn't care if 500 Palestinians lose their place of employment, because in his mind getting rid of the factory will bring the Palestinian Authority to rule, will give the Palestinians their own country, and overall it will be "good", even if for these specific 500 people, or 5000 if you include their families who have food on the table and clothes on their backs, or many more thousands if you count all the Palestinians who work for Israeli factories and companies throughout Judea and Samaria, it will be bad. I don't begrudge him that opinion, but he should really say it straight out - that he does not care for the individual Palestinians, but only for the greater good.
Another thought, I have found it interesting to see so many people post in support of SodaStream, defending them as promoters of peace and coexistence, and we need more initiatives like SodaStream that gives fair employment and wages and benefits to Palestinians, so Israelis and Palestinians can work side by side, it is this type of relationship that will found and allow the coexistence of Two States, etc... It is all true. The funny part of it though is how this indicates how much the consensus of the discussion has changed. Right-Wingers who would never talk about the possibility of a Palestinian State have been pointing to the SodaStream controversy and talking about it as the solution for the Palestinians..
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I don't know if a Right Winger pointing to Soda Stream means they believe in a two-state solution. It could mean they believe that Palestinians will be happier under Israeli rule, if happiness can be defined by freedom and livelihood. If happiness is defined by self-rule no matter how oppressive or poor, then Soda Stream is indeed irrelevant on all counts.
ReplyDeletethe greater good? i will post here the question i posted to DB but which he ignored several times.
ReplyDeletelet's imagine the following scenario:
next month, a full peace treaty is signed and the state of palestine is declared. without getting into a 1000 details, it includes most of the west bank, including the maale adumim industrial zone. the relationship between the israelis and the palestinians is now of two independent states. soda stream keeps their production line. great.
after a month, the palestinian state goes all fascist/human rights crushing. while production continues at the plant and no one is fired, the workers are subject to the whims of a brutal regime. women are oppressed, gays executed, the works.
do you oxfam getting involved?
its a what-if question. we can answer it by making assumptions, but its difficult to be angry at them now for an assumption we are making of how they would act in a theoretical scenario.
Deletebut to answer your question, I dont think Oxfam is doing anything good. I dont think they would care about human rights violations in the scenario you painted.
I dont think they are right in the current situation either. Just trying to figure out their position.
i can see you spent time in a yeshiva where they taught you that there is another side. it is a good thing to do unless hearing yourself talk is what gets you going.
DeleteI'll take that as a compliment.. thanks :-)
DeleteI don't begrudge him that opinion, but he should really say it straight out - that he does not care for the individual Palestinians, but only for the greater good.
ReplyDeleteYou are thinking that they think like you think they think but they don't. But yes, they are seeing the forest. Oxfam thinks that working in Israeli factories, with advanced technology, and also dealing with import/export is a crutch. If only the Arabs were allowed to go it alone (without Jewish employees), then they would be able to break out by themselves. Of course, it is a wrong assumption. There are plenty of Arab owned factories in the 'West Bank' but the pay sucks and probably also the working conditions, but at least they will be responsible for their own future. That is the warped Oxfam theory. The 'West Bank' is a land locked puny area that has no natural resources except olives and stone (awesome grapes, but Muslims cannot grow grapes for wine). Gaza is an even smaller resourceless area. Both areas combined are not self-sustainable and will always be dependent on some others, including Israel. Israel will never be able to end the conflict, ever.
The goal of the anti-settlements / anti-Israels is to prevent normalization with the Jews.