Showing posts with label tzimmer. Show all posts
Showing posts with label tzimmer. Show all posts
Aug 23, 2011
Rav Zilbershtein Defends His Recent Tzimmer Psak
Last week there was an interesting psak, and a controversial one, by Rav Zilbershtein about a fellow who was part of a family group reserving a set of tzimmers. He had to cancel, and then re-reserved it under questionable circumstances at a significant discount. Rav Zilbershtein paskened that the fellow was fine taking the discount, even if he used some questionable methods to get it, as that was the market value.The psak created quite a stir, to the point that Rav Zilbershtein felt it important in his next shiur to defend his psak. Rav Zilbershtein says that all the other rabbonim argue with him, but this is how he sees it. he does not even understand the other arguments.
You can listen to Rav Zilbershtein's shiur (thanks to the reader who sent it to me) and hear it for yourself. After the section where he discusses this case, and responds to questions, there are also some other interesting topics he discusses. BTW, if you listen to the shiur, you should continue and listen to the questions and answers. I think he says more in response to the questions than in his initial explanation.
Points:
- Rav Zilbershtein seems to realize that the fellow used semi-deceptive means to get the discount, but despite that it was all based on the truth and was therefore ok
- the psak is based on what is according to beis din and is not a "dinei shamayim" issue. Perhaps he should have made a kiddush hashem and offered to pay the difference for the loss he caused, but that is not part of the halachic discussion.
- Rav Zilbershten insists that this was the market value and at the end of the day that is all that matters
- one point that was initially unclear - the original cancelation. At the time of the original reservation he had said he might need to cancel as he might need to travel abroad. the owner agreed to allow him to cancel with a certain amount of notice. Because he agreed to it, everything is ok.
- It is important to point out that this is all true because the original cancelation and the subsequent re-reservation were made in good faith. Had he been planning the whole thing in advance, and canceled just so he could re-reserve at a discounted price, the psak would be different.
Aug 16, 2011
Interesting Psak: Discounted Tzimmer Because Of Cancelation
The headline in Bechadrei on this report calls the avreich a ramai, a cheat. I think that is unfair, considering what actually happened, as per the report, and the psak he received.
It seems an entire extended family from Bnei Braq, of 5 brothers and their families, got together and reserved a set of 5 tzimmers, summer bungalow homes in northern Israel. By doing so, they ensured privacy for their group, consisting completely of family members, and private use of the onsite pool. As part of the agreement when making the reservations, it was agreed that they would be able to cancel reservations up to a month before the date, giving the owner enough time to find new vacationers without taking a loss.
Sure enough, one of the brothers had to cancel due to suddenly having to take a trip to the United States. The owner knew he would have to take a loss on the one house, as nobody would rent out that one house knowing they would be in the middle of a family group using the rest of the site and the pool. At best he would be able to rent it out at a seriously discounted price.
Eventually, this fellow's trip to the US was canceled. Being that he was now available, he wanted to join his extended family and go with them on the trip up north. he called the owner of the tzimmer site, anonymously, and asked how much renting a house would cost and if a house would be available on the relevant dates.
The owner responded saying that the other houses are rented out to a family group, but one is still available. The fellow asked if he would have to pay full price, considering the family.. and the owner said he would give him a 50% discount... At that price he booked the tzimmer.
And then his conscience made him feel uncomfortable. He called Rav Zilbershtein, the rav of Ramat Elchonon in Bnei Braq who told over the incident in a shiur, to ask if what he did was ok or not. Rav Zilbershtein said that he was fine and it was smart because when he originally canceled he did so innocently without plans to cheat the owner. Considering how it happened, it was all done honestly, with no deception.
Rav Zilbershtein explained further that the tzimmer has a market value. In this situation the market value of this tzimmer was worth less. There is no reason to pay more than the market value.
According to Bechadrei, this incident and psak is being discussed all over Bnei Braq, and other rabbonim are saying they would pasken differently.
So, in my opening paragraph I say that the headline is wrong because it calls him a cheater, but according to the psak he is not a cheater. What he did, according to rav Zilbershtein, was perfectly ok.
It seems an entire extended family from Bnei Braq, of 5 brothers and their families, got together and reserved a set of 5 tzimmers, summer bungalow homes in northern Israel. By doing so, they ensured privacy for their group, consisting completely of family members, and private use of the onsite pool. As part of the agreement when making the reservations, it was agreed that they would be able to cancel reservations up to a month before the date, giving the owner enough time to find new vacationers without taking a loss.
Sure enough, one of the brothers had to cancel due to suddenly having to take a trip to the United States. The owner knew he would have to take a loss on the one house, as nobody would rent out that one house knowing they would be in the middle of a family group using the rest of the site and the pool. At best he would be able to rent it out at a seriously discounted price.
Eventually, this fellow's trip to the US was canceled. Being that he was now available, he wanted to join his extended family and go with them on the trip up north. he called the owner of the tzimmer site, anonymously, and asked how much renting a house would cost and if a house would be available on the relevant dates.
The owner responded saying that the other houses are rented out to a family group, but one is still available. The fellow asked if he would have to pay full price, considering the family.. and the owner said he would give him a 50% discount... At that price he booked the tzimmer.
And then his conscience made him feel uncomfortable. He called Rav Zilbershtein, the rav of Ramat Elchonon in Bnei Braq who told over the incident in a shiur, to ask if what he did was ok or not. Rav Zilbershtein said that he was fine and it was smart because when he originally canceled he did so innocently without plans to cheat the owner. Considering how it happened, it was all done honestly, with no deception.
Rav Zilbershtein explained further that the tzimmer has a market value. In this situation the market value of this tzimmer was worth less. There is no reason to pay more than the market value.
According to Bechadrei, this incident and psak is being discussed all over Bnei Braq, and other rabbonim are saying they would pasken differently.
So, in my opening paragraph I say that the headline is wrong because it calls him a cheater, but according to the psak he is not a cheater. What he did, according to rav Zilbershtein, was perfectly ok.
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