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Dec 7, 2009
The primitives of Bet Shemesh supported by the haredim
The budget numbers have been released, and the public was made aware of how much income the city has from arnona, and which discounts are being given out and which sector receives how much of that.
The Collections department of the Irya is run by a UTJ guy, and he released the numbers in a way that indicates that the haredi community does not receive the discounts at levels up until now thought or implied. The document shows the haredi community receiving discounts totalling about 26% of all the discounts.
the Chadash, who ran the item as the ir lead article, used that number to incite against the rest of Bet Shemesh. Basically, they say that this number refutes the long-standing claim that the secular community has been supporting the haredi community. According to the numbers, so Chadash says, it is really the haredi community supporting the secular.
Chadash went on, with M. Shottland writing the article (he is a regular hateful columnist for the Yated), claiming that not only is it clear that the haredi community is currently supporting the seculars, but basically the haredi community moved in 20 or so years ago and saved Bet Shemesh from being a city of vandals, drunks, drug addicts and primitives.
First of all, to get it out of the way, both secular and religious and haredi all take advantage of discounts offered. If they are offered within the framework of the law, and they are truthfully applied for and granted, I have no problem with it. no matter who is the recipient. You want a discount for learning in kollel and dont like that someone else receives it and you don't, so go learn in kollel and you will get it as well.
I remember that, when the child allowance grants were at their original levels before being cut, I used to hear the claim that the haredim take advantage of the child allowance, etc. The same was said about money for learning in kollel. My response was that it is there for anybody who qualifies. Have more kids and your child allowance grant will increase proportionally. They are not stealing anything, and the government does not give the grant to the haredim, but they give a certain amount of money per kid - you want more money, have more kids. The kollel stipend is just that - you want it, go ahead. It is not for haredim only - go sit and learn torah in a registered yeshiva/kollel/Bet Midrash program.etc. and you will be given the stipend as well.
As long as it is within the law, there is nothing wrong with it being actualized.
Second, regarding the numbers. I am no expert int he numbers, I have no inside information on the truth of the numbers, and I am not even any good with numbers. I cannot even balance my own bank account. But the fact is that the only numbers released were those that are meant to make a certain point.
They have no way of knowing who takes advantage of what discounts. All they know is who takes advantage of the kollel discount, and even that probably is not 100% correct. So 26% of all discounts are for the haredi avreichim. Yet haredim can also take advantage of other discounts that are offered, some of which are also almost completely used by haredim - such as the discounts for large families (they have different discounts depending on how many kids), or income based discounts, etc. Also, not every haredi is an avreich, and not every haredi gets these discounts.
So I have no idea what the truth of the numbers are, but I know that the truth was not displayed in the document that was publicized, or in the way it was analyzed.
Regarding the 26% - the paper said that the fact that only 26% of the discounts are for haredim, yet the haredi community is over 40%, meaning haredim take far less of the discounts than what would be representative of the community.
I don't know what the actual percentage of haredim living in Bet Shemesh is, or how they would calculate it. 40%-45% is the number being used based on election turnout.
Using such a number though for these purposes is really disingenuous. True, that is the number base don elections, but we are not dealing with politicial power right now. We are dealing with an analysis of who actually lives here. You can't decide that based on who voted. You can decide who has more power based on who voted, even when it sometimes means the power is skewed. Haredim vote in very high percentages, while the general community votes in very low percentages.
So if the haredim accumulated 40% of the political power, it means the actual percentage of haredim in the actual bet Shemesh community is much less than 40%. because they vote in high numbers, and the secular vote in low numbers. Again, for political power, the haredim gain by this fact. But when analyzing social issues, looking at the 40% political number is mistaken.
Is the actual number 25% or 35%? I have no idea. But it is far less than 40% I suspect.
What did bother me was the tone and content of the article. Shottland, and Chadash, made it sound like until the haredim came to Bet Shemesh, the city was a backward village with rampant crime. All kids were on drugs and were getting involved in thievery and thuggery. The natives were primitives.
It was only the haredim who came along and saved the city, providing jobs and services for everyone else to get rich off the backs of the haredim.
Yes, it is true. Bet Shemesh was always a lower income town. Old Bet Shemesh still is. Even during Vaknin's days it was well known that many vatikim form old Bet Shemesh dont bother paying arnona. They were always cousins of someone, etc. Collections were not enforced. They received discounts because of economic status. The whole gamut of reasons were applied.
It is probably still true, and I dont know if it has improved or not.
Yet, that does not mean we have the right to consider them primitives, drug addicts, criminals, and the like.
Haredim can take advantage of the kollel discount and any other discount they qualify for. Anybody who wants to apply for a discount, is welcome to, and if they qualify, more power to 'em. I wish I qualified. Unfortunately I don't qualify for a discount (that I am aware of at least) - if I did, I would apply for it.
The Collections department of the Irya is run by a UTJ guy, and he released the numbers in a way that indicates that the haredi community does not receive the discounts at levels up until now thought or implied. The document shows the haredi community receiving discounts totalling about 26% of all the discounts.
the Chadash, who ran the item as the ir lead article, used that number to incite against the rest of Bet Shemesh. Basically, they say that this number refutes the long-standing claim that the secular community has been supporting the haredi community. According to the numbers, so Chadash says, it is really the haredi community supporting the secular.
Chadash went on, with M. Shottland writing the article (he is a regular hateful columnist for the Yated), claiming that not only is it clear that the haredi community is currently supporting the seculars, but basically the haredi community moved in 20 or so years ago and saved Bet Shemesh from being a city of vandals, drunks, drug addicts and primitives.
First of all, to get it out of the way, both secular and religious and haredi all take advantage of discounts offered. If they are offered within the framework of the law, and they are truthfully applied for and granted, I have no problem with it. no matter who is the recipient. You want a discount for learning in kollel and dont like that someone else receives it and you don't, so go learn in kollel and you will get it as well.
I remember that, when the child allowance grants were at their original levels before being cut, I used to hear the claim that the haredim take advantage of the child allowance, etc. The same was said about money for learning in kollel. My response was that it is there for anybody who qualifies. Have more kids and your child allowance grant will increase proportionally. They are not stealing anything, and the government does not give the grant to the haredim, but they give a certain amount of money per kid - you want more money, have more kids. The kollel stipend is just that - you want it, go ahead. It is not for haredim only - go sit and learn torah in a registered yeshiva/kollel/Bet Midrash program.etc. and you will be given the stipend as well.
As long as it is within the law, there is nothing wrong with it being actualized.
Second, regarding the numbers. I am no expert int he numbers, I have no inside information on the truth of the numbers, and I am not even any good with numbers. I cannot even balance my own bank account. But the fact is that the only numbers released were those that are meant to make a certain point.
They have no way of knowing who takes advantage of what discounts. All they know is who takes advantage of the kollel discount, and even that probably is not 100% correct. So 26% of all discounts are for the haredi avreichim. Yet haredim can also take advantage of other discounts that are offered, some of which are also almost completely used by haredim - such as the discounts for large families (they have different discounts depending on how many kids), or income based discounts, etc. Also, not every haredi is an avreich, and not every haredi gets these discounts.
So I have no idea what the truth of the numbers are, but I know that the truth was not displayed in the document that was publicized, or in the way it was analyzed.
Regarding the 26% - the paper said that the fact that only 26% of the discounts are for haredim, yet the haredi community is over 40%, meaning haredim take far less of the discounts than what would be representative of the community.
I don't know what the actual percentage of haredim living in Bet Shemesh is, or how they would calculate it. 40%-45% is the number being used based on election turnout.
Using such a number though for these purposes is really disingenuous. True, that is the number base don elections, but we are not dealing with politicial power right now. We are dealing with an analysis of who actually lives here. You can't decide that based on who voted. You can decide who has more power based on who voted, even when it sometimes means the power is skewed. Haredim vote in very high percentages, while the general community votes in very low percentages.
So if the haredim accumulated 40% of the political power, it means the actual percentage of haredim in the actual bet Shemesh community is much less than 40%. because they vote in high numbers, and the secular vote in low numbers. Again, for political power, the haredim gain by this fact. But when analyzing social issues, looking at the 40% political number is mistaken.
Is the actual number 25% or 35%? I have no idea. But it is far less than 40% I suspect.
What did bother me was the tone and content of the article. Shottland, and Chadash, made it sound like until the haredim came to Bet Shemesh, the city was a backward village with rampant crime. All kids were on drugs and were getting involved in thievery and thuggery. The natives were primitives.
It was only the haredim who came along and saved the city, providing jobs and services for everyone else to get rich off the backs of the haredim.
Yes, it is true. Bet Shemesh was always a lower income town. Old Bet Shemesh still is. Even during Vaknin's days it was well known that many vatikim form old Bet Shemesh dont bother paying arnona. They were always cousins of someone, etc. Collections were not enforced. They received discounts because of economic status. The whole gamut of reasons were applied.
It is probably still true, and I dont know if it has improved or not.
Yet, that does not mean we have the right to consider them primitives, drug addicts, criminals, and the like.
Haredim can take advantage of the kollel discount and any other discount they qualify for. Anybody who wants to apply for a discount, is welcome to, and if they qualify, more power to 'em. I wish I qualified. Unfortunately I don't qualify for a discount (that I am aware of at least) - if I did, I would apply for it.
Labels:
bet shemesh,
Chadash,
haredim,
secular
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He makes two major mistakes with the numbers.
ReplyDeleteFirst, the numbers he cites are not the number of residents receiving discounts, but families. The average poor old Russian family is 1 or 2; the average poor young Chareidi family is a whole lot more [so the percentage of residents are
Second, I loved the headline: the remaining discounts are all old Bet Shemesh. Apparently, DL, Anglos, etc. take _no_ discounts!
the actual numbers of percentages of how many haredim and how many secular will be difficult to calculate, when including kids. at least for arnona analysis there is no need to count kids int he percentages, because they dont pay. We would be counting a percentage of households.
ReplyDeleteIt just makes the numbers more confusing.
It is like statistics. the numbers can be used to say whatever you want.
(Rafi not G)
ReplyDeleteI very naively went to the Iriya website to look for the raw details of the municipal budget. Nothing, nada, zilch. But then, there isn't much there. It doesn't look like anyone has updated it in the last half a year from the headline articles and the last city council meeting protocol is from May.
just like they havent updated the city since the elections, despite all the grandiose promises....
ReplyDeleteit seems the only thing the city council has been working on is the fight over RBS C
Rafi-
ReplyDeleteI usually agree with most of what you say, howeverI have seen a lot of changes in the city since the new mayor.
1. I had to go to the arnona office twice service was much faster and nobody spoke down at me or yelled at me.
2. Just now bus stops were put up. If you have been traveling by bus, in sun and rain it was very unpleasant.
3. My area and the park next to me is maintained much better
4. There are new recycling plastic bottels.
I was very concerned when after I voted for chen they did not get relected, but I don't think it's fair to say that nothing is getting done.
Frankly I could care less about rBS gimmel, it will takeyears to fight over years to build the kablan will go bankrupt (as all other charedi kablanim do) and maybe my great grandchildren will actually move in!
I would love to know which park is near you.
ReplyDeleteThe one nearest to our house had a see-saw taken out for repairs during the last vaknin days, and it hasn't been returned. The 106 response: we don't know / soon / no answer.
OTOH, part of the park was stolen by a local store which expanded onto city property, and nothing was done [this was during the vaknin days]; maybe they figured that if no one protested that, the childrens equipment doesn't really matter.
I haven't been to an arnona office since we got our oleh discount, so I can't comment on anything in the last five years. Did you go to the main office, or the one in the satellite office in the RBS-A matnas?
obviously saying *nothing* is a bit of an exaggeration. *nothing* would mean he was playing solitaire all day on his computer in his office, and maybe writing a blog.. :-)
ReplyDeleteSure, things get done. Very little though. he doesnt have enough street cleaners, and has not added to the small team due to budgetary constraints (his excuse). I think he has 2 teams of street cleaners for a city of about 90000 people.
So, sure the streets near my house or your house get cleaned once in a while, but not nearly as frequently as they should be. The parks get cleaned once in a while too.
have you tried calling 106. talk about an effort in futility. and if you get anyone to answer, let me know if the problem you reported got resolved in a timely fashion.
Yes, I take the bus. One bus stop I use still does not have a "station". and another I use already did. I am happy he got egged, superbus and the MOt to put in 14 new stations. very nice.
Has he created initiatives for getting the youth off the streets and out of the parks? any youth centers? something? he made a big deal about it before elections..
hospital? minhelet kehilatit? you name the promise he made before elections and then let me know if it is on the way to being fulfilled. and yes, we are a year later so some of it should be accomplished or at least in the process of being accomplished.
he has done a few small things. of course he has. but pretty much the city is stagnant right now.
It's worth mentioning the education system. The Egaf HaChinuch staff hasn't changed AT ALL. I know for a fact the manager and assistant were packing before the election, the standard assumption being they would be gone afterwards.
ReplyDeleteThey've since unpacked and settled right back in.
Wow. Baruch Hashem, we'd committed to another community before RBS was a going concern, and,B"H', we had compelling reasons not to investigate the community later on.
ReplyDeleteI wish you hatzlacha.
Astute? waiting for your thoughts... agree? disagree? after asking a few times for the post, I would have thought you would have commented on it....
ReplyDelete(Rafi not G)
ReplyDeleteThe park next to us (Sheinfeld) is just as unkept as before, Balayish came and spoke to us and claimed he would do something about the youth that congregate there but did nothing. The streets and sidewalks are still broken and littered, the recycling bins (decided on before Abutbul) are too few and not emptied often enough, no minhelet shkhunot, no voice for the citizens, no new businesses. Nothing new at all.
Rafi G - he has done a few small things. of course he has. but pretty much the city is stagnant right now.
ReplyDeleteBut how do you expect him to do "big" things without enough money to spend on "big" things? After all, with 40+% of the folks paying reduced arnona, where exactly is the money to come from?
Perhaps a better model would be for cities to limit their Charedi population to about 15-20% to avoid such a situation. Or maybe instead limit the arnona discounts to some overall percentage of arnona budget, so Charedim living in a city that is 40% Charedi would receive half the discount that they would receive in a city that is 20% Charedi.
Mark
twitter.com/MarkSoFla
Mark - I like the arnona proposal, and would also suggest reducing the size of the discounts. if the city needs money to function, maybe it should not be giving property tax discounts to the tune of 70% or more.
ReplyDeleteregarding your first proposal, I dont see how you can suggest that. How can you "limit the charedi population" to any number? you cannot tell people where they can or cannot live. You could make taxes too high for them to consider moving to that area, but you cannot say "we already have our 15% charedim so move somewhere else. Aside from the racist aspect of it, how are you going to define charedi? what about charedim who pay full tax (yes, there are some. probably plenty) - are they part of the 15% or outside of the 15%?
you are right - without a reasonable budget, he cannot do anything he would like to. So why did he make so many elections promises? he knew what the budgets were like. He served on the City Council for at least 2 terms prior to running for mayor.
in theory it sounds nice to say "anyone who qualifies gets it" and therefore a law is fair. in practice, something done like that is ususally directed to a specific group or groups and not the general population. the question isn't "should group y be taking advantage of law x". the question is "if group y is the only benificiary of law x, then why have law x". it sounds to say that everyone can have more kids and therefore get more money, but it doesn't happen.
ReplyDeletewhy is it unfair to simply say "for every kid you get z shekels?" why make this differentiation which benefits (in practice) arabs and khareidim?
if the country had a law which said "anyone who pays their arnona on saturday gets a 15% discount" would that be fair? anyone can do, if you choose not to because you are shomer shabbat, that is your issue. what if the law was anyone who pays via computer gets a discount? well it sounds nice but are you then punishing those who don't.
for years the khareidim argued that giving more bituakh leumi to those who served in teh idf was unfair. ok but if you argue that then you can't aruge giving more for the 5th kid is fair.
ben - that is why I mentioned in a comment that they can decide to decrease the size of the discounts (if they dont have enough money for basic services at an appropriate level, perhaps those discounts at those levels are inappropriate).
ReplyDeleteThen, anybody considering moving to any specific city, in addition to checking the arnona rates, they will also be checking how much they will have to be paying after whatever discounts they will qualify for.
By engineering the discounts, you can direct, with a margin of error, the types of communities you wish to attract.