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Jul 5, 2017
Quote of the Day
The fact that my two sons finished 12 years of school in the State of Israel with any person sitting with them and showing them what a page of gemara looks like is a tragedy, as this is their heritage. This is their history. It is not anybody else's. It does not belong to the Haredim. It does not belong to Religious Zionism. It does not belong to Yeshivat Merkaz HaRav. It belongs to every child in the State of Israel.
-- MK Yair Lapid
-- MK Yair Lapid
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So get yourself over to a yeshiva, you and your sons, Yair and relcaim your yerusha. Its waiting for you.
ReplyDeleteAmazing Quote and very insightful thought from Yair Lapid (especially considering his father).
ReplyDeleteI remember in Yeshiva when a couple of soldiers who were stationed outside came into the Beit Midrash to get something to drink and one of them asked us what we were doing. Someone sat with him and showed him a Gemara, which he had not only never seen before, but had absolutely no idea what the Talmud was (he asked whether this was one of the books in Tanach, like Berashit, Shmot and Yehoshua are).
Amazing and tragic that someone with an inquisitive had gone through the Israeli education system and had no idea what the Talmud was.
This is absolute deception on the part of Lapid. It's a quote that sounds great on the surface - after all, he's right, isn't he? Shouldn't all Jews have a part of the Torah? So of course I agree with his message, but I vehemently disagree with its messenger.
ReplyDeleteLapid doesn't want the Torah at all - he wants the Torah to be an academic pursuit similar to how Ruth Calderon, his former party colleague, saw the Torah. He wants to have a part of it without it changing his soul. He doesn't want to be religious and still be מחשיב the Torah. He can't have it that way. It doesn't work that way. If the שלא לשמה motivation is to destroy Torah Judaism as we know it, it can never come to be לשמה.
while that might, or might not, be his intention, how do you know a taste of the Torah wont affect him or his kids or someone's kids in some way and bring them closer to Hashem and the Torah? Without any exposure it will never happen.
ReplyDeleteTrue. But let's say Lapid gets his way, and all of a sudden 500 "secular Yeshivot" pop up all over Israel. Would that be a good thing or a bad thing? I would contend that it would be a bad thing even if some good may eventually come out of it. Torah would become the סם המות.
ReplyDeleteI find this astonishing.
DeleteCould you elaborate as to why the establishment of 500 "secular yeshivot" all over Israel would be a bad thing?
Could you also elaborate as regards your earlier comment, regarding this kind of learning not changing Ruth Calderon's -- or anyone else's -- soul?
One more question, since you're anonymous, how old are you?
(I'm asking because, perhaps this might explain your comments.
Thanks!
As I explained, the Torah would become the סם המות. For more on this topic, see Rav Aharon Lichtenstein ZT"L's essay on the subject. I'm not a Talmid of his, but this article is correct.
DeleteWe know that ראשית חכמה יראת השם. As Pirkei Avot says, אם אין יראה אין חכמה. Without fear of G-d, wisdom becomes poisonous.
My age should be irrelevant. Pretend I'm 100 years old.
I saw you state that it would become a סם המוות. I didn't notice your explaining it. Nor did I see any explanation of how you know what effect Torah learning has had on ruth Calderon and those who learn with her.
DeleteI'm not quite sure what more you want. I already linked to Rav Lichtenstein's article on the subject. I could translate it if you want, but that would take some time. It should answer all the questions you have.
DeleteI read Rav Lichtenstein's essay. He's speaking theory. You are speaking fact.
DeleteAs long as we're allowed to conflate speculation with fact, my own view is that I see no reason to assume that there is more spiritual growth through Torah in 80% of yeshivas and kolleilim than in ruth Calderon's secular yeshiva. And I would guess that there is more סם המוות.
I read Rav Lichtenstein's essay. He's speaking theory. You are speaking fact.
DeleteYour comment perfectly typifies what is wrong with defending secular Yeshivas. Do you not see what your fingers are typing???
By separating Torah theory from reality, they have become the paradigm of Apikorsut in Israel today.
there is more spiritual growth through Torah in 80% of yeshivas and kolleilim than in ruth Calderon's secular yeshiva. And I would guess that there is more סם המוות.
Thanks for the good laugh.
Glad you think that funny.
DeletePersonally, I wish it were not true, and consider it sad.
As for Ruth Calderon, please share with us what you know about her, whether you have met her, etc, given that you are so certain as to her terrible middos and desire to destroy Torah.
Personally, I would have thought she considers it every jew's yerusha and wants everyone to realize that.
But maybe you have more evidence than I do.
If so, please share.
Facts please.
You are apparently a Ruth Calderon expert, as you keep mentioning her when I only mentioned her in passing. No, I never met her. No, I never said she has terrible middos nor did I say that she desires to destroy Torah. (Putting words in one's mouth is a bad midda, BTW.) She is probably a very nice person. I am not attacking her as much as her line of study and line of work.
DeleteWhen you say that it's every Jew's yerusha, I agree. Does that mean that it should be taught by those who don't follow its precepts and influence others in a way that only shows a mockery of a Torah way-of-life? I would hope you agree that it doesn't and shouldn't.
Could be but I'm not sure we need to worry about do many secular dedicating themselves years to study of torah in secular yeshivas. Anyways that isn't what he was talking about. There is a debate going on about adding and religious studies in the state school system. Lapid is referring to that, so we are talking about kids in grade school and high school learning a little bit of Jewish texts
ReplyDeleteIf the religious studies is taught by qualified religious teachers, אה"נ. If, however, the kids are getting taught Jewish subjects by those who denigrate the Torah or those who denigrate those who keep the Torah, it's better for them not to be taught it at all. Let them learn it from the Chabad rabbi that meets them on the street.
DeleteOK.
DeleteSo you have no evidence that learning in secular yeshivos has been bad for any of its students no evidence it has been bad for the Jewish People.
Nothing more to discuss.
Goodbye
I'll assume this was meant for the previous thread.
DeleteIf Haza"l who say that one needs Yir'at Hashem before Torah is not evidence enough for you, then I feel bad that you have not acquired an appreciation for or the required faith in the words of Haza"l. Perhaps, a religious Yeshiva will help.
All the best to you.
Yaak is exactly right. Where have you guys been? Are you reading what is really going now in Israel and worldwide. There is an agenda to destroy Torah Judaism. This is just another scheme to get control over the Torah. They are working every which way but frumme Jews know better. You can't make a silk purse from sow's ear. Lapid is Lapid, the son of Lapid plus being a sly foxy politician. But nothing they try can or will work!
ReplyDeleteIs there a typo in the original article? Is with meant to be without?
ReplyDeleteRegarding the actual debate, the whole subject sums up the whole reason why there is no achdut in Israel, and why the Temples were destroyed.
Lapid says that the Torah does not belong to the religious. On the other side, some are saying, don't let them learn Torah, if the teacher is not to their liking. When will both just learn to accept each other? Only then, will things get better.
Yair Lapid had 2 or 3 religious people in his party in the Knesset. I have seen him in pictures with a kipa on his head. He is not as anti as his father. i do not support him, but I don't think that any time his namer is mentioned, everyone needs to jump. In addition he is proud of an ancestry, I think he mentioned a great grandfather who was a big Rav. Regarding his father, much has been written, and i would never judge a Holocaust survivor. Interestingly, Rav Lau visited him regularly as he was dying in hospital. And when he was Jusatice Minister he was resposnble for the Batei Din,a nd was praised by the Chief Rabbi then Shlomo Amar. When he was interior Minister, he gave an award to Betar Eilit.
ReplyDelete