Remember Terri Schiavo, the Florida woman whose feeding tube (not life support) was removed and she starved to death? This was despite her own parents offering, in fact pleading with the court to allow them to pay for her care. But no, the courts sided with her husband who "recalled" that Terri mentioned (this was not written in a living will or anything) she would never want to be a burden and would want the tube removed. So they did.

When all this happened, Michael Schiavo was already living with another woman and had fathered 2 children with her, while his beloved wife, whom he couldn't stand to see suffering, was murdered by the State of Florida.

Bizarre.. What stand of society do they hail from?

Where was the moatza datit? they are supposed to do background checks to prevent this from happening.

Good for the 1st wife! no reason for her to take this.

Wanna, your facts are completely misrepresented as it regards schaivo. Your bias is clear.

The autopsy proved conclusivly that terri schaivo was brain dead. Her brain had atrophied. The courts upheld the side of the husband every single step of the way.

Unfortunatly relgious zelots refused to allow this private family matter to remain private and forced it into a political issue.

I wonder how you would feel is someone came along and took away your right to circumcize. Why should you have the right to mutilate and surgically alter a son's healthy male genitalia? just because god told you to? you would prefer that this private family matter not be turned into a political issue.

And to call it murder takes away all pretense of rationality.

On a seperate note: I find it hard to believe that the Rabbis have not yet found a way to allow the woman to give a man a get. Why does the man have all the power? And everyone just looks the other way and pretends that their wife/mother/sister/daughter is not a peice of property in the ortho-jew world.

Unless of course you're not looking the other way and really like that you're women are your possessions under your control. Ego much?

"...Your bias is clear....

Unfortunatly relgious zelots refused to allow this private family matter ....

....the Rabbis have not yet found a way to allow the woman to give a man a get. Why does the man have all the power? ...."

Of course my bias is clear. This wasn't like a DNR where they passively allowed her to die without trying to save her. All she had connected to her was a feeding tube, which they actively removed so she would starve to death. Her parents were willing to pay for her care, they should have let her live. Sorry if that seems mean to you.

My main point was that all the talk about what her wishes were came from her husband. He was so devoted to honouring his wife's wishes that he was already shacking up with another woman. What credibility did he have?

Circumcision is an accepted procedure often chosen by gentiles too, so bad comparison.

I am not qualified to answer your question about a Get. I do know that it has grieved the rabbis terribly throughout the years that they cannot solve this dilemma. When you are ready for a real explanation, rather than using this issue as a basis for bashing the Ortho-Jew world, maybe I can refer to you someone. I must warn you though, it might be a rabbi.

i felt bad for her until i continued reading that she engaged in mesirah.

are you serious? you really think she was wrong for going to the police?

of course i'm not serious. that's the least of what she should have done!

wanna,

what difference does it make what he was doing years later? He should wait decades while the courts go through their process?

circumcision: we can argue the current trend lines and christian sexual history behind it. However, for the sake of example, lets say the law was passed in a land where circumcision is nearly 0%, like spain, where the rate is 2%.

As for the get issue, I have spoken with many rabbis on this and similar examples of the torah treating women as property.

The nicer rabbis say that we just dont understand but this is gods will and we are inferior judging by inferior standards.
There are many smart folks who read this blog, some rabbis in fact.

The fact is there is no pruzabel for marriage because women are treated like property.

Even the big example that is often used, that daughters can inherit, falls flat on its face when you see what happens to the property once she marries or has kids.

I don't want to debate whether the torah treats women as property. What I would like to know is how can you accept what grieves you so willingly? How does one balance their belief with that belief's treatment of their mother/wife/daughter/sister?

The rules made perfect sense thousands of years ago, but if the torah is supposed to be timeless, then why isn't it?

well thanks for weighing in....

"The Way":

1. There is a "pruzabel" for marriage. It's called a prenuptial agreement.
2. Halacha in many places assumes that people, men as well as women, are more subordinate to the interests of family and society than is accepted nowadays. When Yitzchak and Rivka married, Rivka had the opportunity to say no, but Yitzchak did not. Does that mean that men are property? No, it means that people in the ancient world were simply allowed less individuality than modern people. Halacha in many cases reflects this view of society, since its goal was not to abolish existing social institutions wholesale, only to change the parts that were immoral. In recognition of the fact that society does change, halacha included a mechanism for changing itself as well, one detail at a time. The ketuvah, ban on polygamy, and now prenuptial agreements are all products of this change, as halacha has repeatedly adapted itself to a world of increasing individuality.